MSNBC Interview - Transcript

Interview

MSNBC Interview - Transcript

MSNBC INTERVIEW WITH SENATOR JOHN THUNE (R-SD)

SUBJECT: THE ECONOMIC STIMULUS BILL INTERVIEWER: NORAH O'DONNELL

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MS. O'DONNELL: Let's go to Republican Senator John Thune of South Dakota, who is proposing to scrap the entire $936 billion bill, and replace it in its entirety with a tax rebate for the middle class.

Senator, good to see you. Thanks so much for joining us.

SEN. THUNE: Good afternoon, Norah.

MS. O'DONNELL: I want to get to your proposal in just a minute, but first, the president said today that it is inexcusable, what you and other Republicans are doing by delaying this stimulus. He said the American people voted for change. Why do you disagree with him?

SEN. THUNE: (Chuckles.) I don't disagree that they voted for change. I just don't think this is the change they voted for. If you think about it, we put this bill on the floor -- I should say "we" -- the Democratic leadership put this bill on the floor on Monday night. We've had debate Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. It's now Friday. We've essentially had three days to debate, Norah, a $1 trillion spending bill. I don't think you can accuse Republicans of delaying this. We're trying to get amendments considered, trying to improve the bill.

This is a process that's working its way forward, but we do happen to believe that when you're talking about spending a trillion dollars, that you ought to do it in the right way. And I think that there are a lot of us who have ideas about how to improve upon this bill that think those ideas need to be considered.

MS. O'DONNELL: Well, let me ask you, then, about your particular policy, because I think it gets to the heart of this matter about what some people think is stimulus or not. Tax cuts or spending: It is in the eye of the beholder. I think that's how the parties differ on this.

Let me read. Your proposal and amendment would strike the entire $936 billion Senate stimulus bill, and replace it with a 936 billion (dollar), across-the-board, middle-class tax rebate for 182 million Americans. The amendment would result in a tax rebate of $5,000 for single filers, and about $10,000 for married couples.

Senator, I did some research on this, and I went to the Heritage Foundation, which happens to be, as you know, a conservative think tank. And let me read you what they say about tax rebates. Quote, "By definition, an economy grows when it produces more goods and services than it did the year before. Tax rebates fail because they do not encourage productivity or wealth creation. To receive a rebate, nobody has to work, save, invest or create any new wealth."

Senator, respond to that. Essentially, the Heritage Foundation said: Rebate is not going to stimulate this economy.

SEN. THUNE: I think the answer to that is, compared to what? What the Democrat proposal is, it takes $936 billion out of the economy and -- or borrows it, I should say, from future generations, and spends it on government programs. And I think that if you gave the Heritage Foundation a choice between spending in Washington, D.C., and actually putting money back in people's hands, that would be a pretty clear choice for them.

But let me just tell you, if I can, Norah, my amendment is nine pages long. The Democrat underlying bill is 737 pages long, because it's filled with all kinds of special-interest projects and pet projects and wasteful spending and pork.

All I'm saying is, if we're going to spend $936 billion, let's divide it up among everybody that pays taxes. Now, you said that people -- you know, it does actually go out to people who work, to people who pay taxes. And you can deliver a tax benefit of, as you mentioned, for an individual, $5,100 to a single filer, and over $10,000 to a married couple filing jointly.

MS. O'DONNELL: But Senator, with all due respect, to sort of say it's just a bunch of wasteful spending and pork projects, isn't that a little bit unfair? I mean, there's massive amounts of money here for infrastructure, construction jobs to put people back out onto rebuilt roads and bridges in this country, to rebuild our schools. Isn't that a little unfair to paint that broad brush and just say that's pork?

SEN. THUNE: There's massive amounts of spending in there, but you have to remember that a lot of this money is going to be washed through the bureaucracy. It's not going to take effect for a long time. The new programs that are going to create -- going to be created, are going to have to go through regulations and, you know, creating and building the bureaucracies and hiring people --

MS. O'DONNELL: But Senator, I disagree with you. Senator, I read the CBO report that came out on Monday, the newest one, and it said more than 70 percent would be felt within the first year. That's just not true that it's not going to be felt for a while.

SEN. THUNE: Well, the CBO also said, Norah, that of the appropriations part of this -- there's two parts of it; there's the tax, and the appropriations part -- that only 12 percent of it would spend in the first year, and less than half of it would spend in 2009 and 2010. And it also said, the CBO most recent report, that it could create as few as 1.3 million jobs, at a cost of $900 billion. I mean, do the arithmetic on that. That's almost $800,000 a job.

All I'm saying is, instead of paying $800,000 to create a single job, let's give every married family, or married couple in this country, a $10,000 tax rebate.

And to your point about tax rebates not working, the rebates that were used last year were $600 and $1,200. We're talking about 5,000 (dollars) and $10,000. I mean, the average annual salary in my state of South Dakota is $30,000. If you give a married couple $10,000, I think they're going to spend it. Two-thirds of our gross domestic product, almost 70 percent, is in consumer spending. I think this is a very --

MS. O'DONNELL: I know you --

SEN. THUNE: It's a very clear, you know, distinction between what the Democrats want to do. But all I'm simply saying is -- and I'm not in favor of spending this amount of money -- but if we're going to do it, let's do it this way.

MS. O'DONNELL: Well, I hear you, Senator, but -- I know you're talking about whether it's stimulative or not. But in fact, on those tax rebates that President Bush did, most people decided to save them. They did not spend them. So that argument that they are going to do that -- and you heard -- we just got out the consumer spending numbers. They're the worst in 17 years. People are so scared that any money that's coming in their pocket, they're keeping in their pocket.

SEN. THUNE: Well, let's say they spend -- let's say they spend half of it. That's a lot of money going into the economy. If they save half of it, it's going to go into banks, and help recapitalize the balance sheets of banks, which is another important part of our economic recovery.

I just think that when you allow people to have money, keep the money of their own, spend it their own way, you've got a lot better chance of seeing this get back into the economy in some form, whether it's in the form of consumer spending or saving, than you do if you send it to Washington, D.C., and create all these new programs.

MS. O'DONNELL: And Senator, just quickly, from what you understand -- it's of course the Democrats who are shepherding this bill through, but from what you understand, is there going to be a vote tonight on this full package? Senator Evan Bayh told me at the top of the hour that he does not think it may end up being pushed till Sunday.

SEN. THUNE: We don't know for sure. The -- some of the Republicans -- George Voinovich, the senator from Ohio, just pulled out of the discussions. I think what the White House strategy and the Democrat strategy right now is, Norah: Pass this; get it across the finish line; doesn't matter how many Republican votes you get. They aren't really attempting at this point, I think, to make this a bipartisan bill. I think they just want to get it passed.

I don't know if they have the votes to do that this evening. I doubt it. I suspect we're going to be here, probably, voting at some point on Sunday.

MS. O'DONNELL: All right. Senator John Thune, Republican, now the second senator who has told us it's going to be pushed to the weekend.

Senator, thank you. We appreciate your time.

SEN. THUNE: Thanks, Norah.

END.

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