MSNBC "Hardball With Chris Matthews" - Transcript

Interview

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MR. MATTHEWS: Senator Sanders, I just want to know if you can do it, a man of the proud left who believes in government. How is this stimulus package going to get the economy back in shape or back towards good health?

SEN. SANDERS: Well, no one thinks it's going to work miracles. What we are doing right now, Chris, as you know, is hemorrhaging jobs. We're in the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression. What we hope to do is by investing in our crumbling infrastructure -- I don't know about the rest of the country; I can tell you that in Vermont we have potholes. Our bridges are in desperate shape. Our roads need help. Our water systems are falling apart. So we need to invest in any case. We may as well invest now, and in the process create a whole lot of jobs.

In addition to that, for decades now we have been talking about energy independence and the insanity of spending $700 billion a year to import oil from abroad. This has been going on for decades. Now is the time to move to energy independence, break our dependency on fossil fuel, move to energy efficiency and sustainable energies. And you know what? If you do that over a period of time, you create millions of jobs as well.

So no one thinks that this is a panacea. But in the midst of hemorrhaging jobs, in the midst of trying to keep us from falling over the cliff into a depression, it is right policy. It is good policy.

MR. MATTHEWS: So what exactly is the connection between the unemployment rate rising right now, as it continues to rise, and companies keep laying people off, and people aren't buying at the store, and we've got over 2 million foreclosures out there -- how does this bill deal with the foreclosure problem, the rising unemployment problem, the financial crisis? How does it deal with it?

SEN. SANDERS: Well, I think clearly if you're talking about weatherizing millions of homes, it takes workers to do that. If you're talking about rebuilding our bridges, our highways, our roads, our water systems, it takes workers not only on the jobs; it takes the people who are supplying those products as well.

So what we're talking about in the process is creating millions of jobs in helping states and cities get the help they need so that teachers and police officers and firemen don't get fired, adding to the unemployment roll. I think this is a time-tested way of stimulating the economy, putting money into people's paychecks, allowing them to go out and spend and create other jobs; not a panacea, but it's something the economists tell us is what we should be doing right now.

MR. MATTHEWS: The problem is, Senator -- and I agree with what you said -- the problem is that how you describe the stimulus package is how you might describe a small portion of it, the actual job creation portion. But so much of the bill includes different kinds of tax cuts. It includes extended unemployment benefits. It includes health care. It includes aid to the states.

SEN. SANDERS: Right.

MR. MATTHEWS: It seems to be a grab bag of everything everybody wanted on Capitol Hill.

SEN. SANDERS: I don't think that that's fair, Chris. I mean, I think rebuilding our infrastructure, moving to sustainable energy, moving to energy efficiency, creates jobs right away. But in the midst of this, you know, you can't forget about the worker who lost his job or her job and the fact they no longer have health insurance. What do we do, just kick those people onto the sidewalk? I think we have to protect them with health insurance.

There are millions of families right now who are wondering if their kids are going to be able to stay in college or go to college. So we've expanded Pell grants, which is a right and good thing to do.

MR. MATTHEWS: Yeah, that's right. I'm all for relief -- Senator, I'm all for relief measures. We have to extend relief measures. I don't think they should be confused with getting the economy rolling again.

Here's Senator Lamar Alexander, a Republican. I guess we once would have called him a moderate or centrist Republican; I'm not sure what he is right now. But here he is describing what he thinks is necessary.

SEN. LAMAR ALEXANDER (R-TN): (From videotape.) So we welcome the calls for bipartisan work. We're ready to work. We have good ideas -- fix housing first, let people keep more of their own money, and focus the bill on spending projects that create jobs today, not those that don't.

MR. MATTHEWS: What do you make of that, Senator?

SEN. SANDERS: Well, I think Lamar is right that we do have to pay attention to housing. That's absolutely right. But I think what the economists would tell Lamar is that our economy is hemorrhaging so bad that we need a significant infusion, much more, I think, than Lamar Alexander and some of the Republicans are talking about.

MR. MATTHEWS: I just wonder whether, in the end, we might as well be better off just writing checks to everybody who bought a house more than they could afford --

SEN. SANDERS: Well, I think --

MR. MATTHEWS: -- because until they can afford the houses they're living in, we're going to have more foreclosures and more economic decline, aren't we?

SEN. SANDERS: I think the housing crisis is right at the root of our problems. We just met with President Obama today. And very soon there is going to be a significant housing proposal coming down the pike to protect those people who are in danger of foreclosure, as well as those people who are struggling to keep their house. So housing is a huge issue that we have got to address.

But bottom line, Chris, let's be clear. This economy right now is on the verge of slipping into a depression.

MR. MATTHEWS: I know.

SEN. SANDERS: And if we slip into a depression, it's going to take years and years and years of suffering to get out. What most economists will tell us is even though we have a huge deficit and national debt, it is better to spend now, create jobs now, and keep us out of that depression.

MR. MATTHEWS: Okay, thank you very much, Senator Bernard Sanders --

SEN. SANDERS: Thank you.

MR. MATTHEWS: -- of Vermont.

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