MSNBC "Hardball with Chris Matthews" -Transcript

Interview

MSNBC "Hardball with Chris Matthews" -Transcript

MR. MATTHEWS: We begin with the auto bailout plan with Democratic Congresswoman Jan Schakowsky of Illinois and Republican Congresswoman Marsha Blackburn of Tennessee.

I want to start with you, Congresswoman Schakowsky. Let's look at this now. Look at this church in Detroit. Well, let's start here. Let's start with a look at the beginning here. Let's take a look at this rally in Chicago right now. Look at this.

We've got a problem here right now, Congresswoman Schakowsky. The workers who are getting laid off are starting to get angry about it. Here they're protesting the fact that the Bank of America won't give a line of credit to the Republic Windows and Doors Company, which is laying off people, and they're very angry. Is this the beginning of a workers' revolt in this country against these layoffs, which are, by the way, in this industry as well as every other industry?

REP. SCHAKOWSKY: Well, I actually went to that plant yesterday and met with the workers, who realized, when they were told on a Tuesday, that they were done on Friday, they said, "If we leave on Friday, we really are finished. We're not going to get our severance. We're not going to get our health care benefits or our vacation pay."

And so they are sitting in there and they are firm, and they're not going anywhere. And we give Bank of America $25 billion and we think that, yes, there ought to be the saving of this plant. You know, they make Energy Star windows, the exact kind of jobs that we want to create for our environment.

MR. MATTHEWS: Yeah. Well, I've noticed one thing, Congresswoman. I've noticed it's cold outside right now in a good part of the country. Those people look cold. They're out in the cold right now. They're going to get laid off. And nobody knows how deep this depression or recession, or whatever we're going to call it at the end of it, because we don't know how deep it's going to go or how long, how bad it's going to be.

What are you going to do, as a member of Congress, to get these people relief from what's growing, growing, growing as more and more unemployment in this country?

REP. SCHAKOWSKY: Well, I'm going to be sending a letter to Treasury this week that says, look, if we can give that kind of money to Bank of America, then we ought to be able to bail out these workers in this plant for exactly the kind of jobs that we need. Bank of America could come out smelling like a rose if, for a fraction, a tiny, tiny fraction of the money they've gotten, they extend this line of credit. This company has customers. They're ready to roll, going into greater production. And to shut it down is absolutely inexcusable. This is 300 jobs and thousands of family members.

MR. MATTHEWS: Okay, let me go to Congresswoman Blackburn and to the auto industry question. There's talk now of the Democrats leaving town this week, and, before they leave, dropping a $15 billion check, basically, on the auto industry to help them survive Christmas. Are you for that check being written, Congresswoman?

REP. BLACKBURN: Chris, I tell you, I voted no twice on the financial markets bailout. And so far what I am hearing on the auto industry bailout, I am having a tough time supporting that.

What I would like to see the auto industry do is move to a Chapter 11 reorganization so that they can become healthy, so that they can become viable, and so we can keep those jobs in this country and keep the domestic auto manufacturing industry here and keep them working.

Now, in Tennessee, you know, this is of concern for us, because we do have the presence of General Motors. We have some Ford Motor Company in our district. We also have Nissan and Toyota, and Volkswagen is just opening a plant on the east end of Tennessee. And so keeping a domestic manufacturing component working and viable is very important to us.

Now, one of the things that I continue to point up is that there are things that should be done to help the auto industry, helping them retool for next-generation automobiles. It's important. And Jan and I both are on Energy and Commerce and participated in the conversation and the legislation where that $25 billion was originally put in place to help them retool for the next-generation autos.

MR. MATTHEWS: Do you think -- Congresswoman Blackburn and then Congresswoman Schakowsky, same question to both of you -- do you think we need a union shop where we have autos being produced in this country? Congresswoman Blackburn first, do you believe in a union representing workers, or do you believe in workers not being represented in collective bargaining? Where do you stand?

REP. BLACKBURN: You know, I am for the workers having the opportunity to work in the environment in which they are most comfortable. In Tennessee, we have the UAW presence in Spring Hill. We also have other plants which are both just-in-time suppliers and also manufacturing plants that are non-union shops. And individuals get the opportunity to choose which environment they like best.

What we need to do is make certain we put this industry on the road to health. And I think reorganization, renegotiating those contracts, restructuring their debt and becoming healthy and viable is the way to do it.

MR. MATTHEWS: Congresswoman Schakowsky, is it important that we have the UAW representing these workers?

REP. SCHAKOWSKY: Absolutely. And I think that the --

MR. MATTHEWS: So you're for unions to prevail here.

REP. SCHAKOWSKY: Well, yes. And nine out of 10 of the most efficient auto plants in this country, from an objective report, are union plants. And they have made lots of concessions. They're partners in this bridge loan and are willing to make even more concessions. But, you know, Spring Hill would lose over 29,000 jobs if GM goes under. And, look, who is going to buy a car from a company that's in bankruptcy? That's just not going to happen.

This is the way that we're going to get the kind of restructuring. It's required in the deal. Viability of the company is where we're heading. If they're not making the kind of changes that they need to make, be viable by March 31st, they will not get a penny more. But the $25 billion for working people -- look, 3.3 million American jobs are related to the auto industry. We can't let them go under. And bankruptcy is not an option.

MR. MATTHEWS: But, you know, isn't the problem product? And isn't the problem -- I'm not going to do this again; I'm not going to keep doing it. We had a couple of members of Congress on the other day, and I asked if they bought American cars or they bought Japanese cars or foreign cars, and they said three out of four bought -- there were three out of four purchases of Japanese cars rather than American cars. Fine, that's normal American behavior.

But if that's the pattern of American consumer decisions, isn't that at the root of the problem, Congresswoman Schakowsky? It's not the failure of our economy. It's the failure of the auto manufacturers in America to produce cars that people choose to buy when their own family incomes and well-beings and the daughters and sons, the cars they recommend they buy, are at stake?

REP. SCHAKOWSKY: There's no --

MR. MATTHEWS: Isn't that the problem, that people aren't buying American cars? That's the problem, isn't it?

REP. SCHAKOWSKY: Yes, although I love my Ford Focus wagon. But I would agree that we have to make those kinds of changes. The auto industry has to be forced into them. And clearly, in doing this $25 billion bridge loan, we will be able to do that.

MR. MATTHEWS: Okay, you've said the magic word, the fact that the federal government has to force the auto industry to produce cars that the American people will buy, and you still trust their leadership to make decisions. But you really don't trust them, because you're telling them what to do. And that's the question. Why do guys make seven-figure salaries to do what they're told to do? I thought they could get the big money by being smart entrepreneurs.

Congresswoman Blackburn, isn't the problem that Washington has no idea how to design cars, has no idea how to market them, produce what people want to buy, because that's the magic of brilliant engineering and brilliant marketing, and Washington doesn't have that know-how?

REP. BLACKBURN: Chris, you and I are going to agree on something, and that is, I doubt that you could give me -- and I certainly can't think of the last time the federal government stepping into an industry caused that industry to be more successful or more efficient.

MR. MATTHEWS: Right.

REP. BLACKBURN: And what we know is that there are some things that we in Congress can do -- addressing the issue of trade. I think that 61 percent -- if my memory is correct, 61 percent of GM sales last quarter were international sales. That global business has grown for them every year. And we need to look at some of those issues. Taxation is an issue here that we can be looking at. I have a proposal that would --

MR. MATTHEWS: So what's your point? I'm sorry. How do we help? Do we increase free trade or reduce free trade?

REP. BLACKBURN: What we need to do is look at how trade affects the auto industry. And I think that that is an issue where we need to put a little bit more attention with GM and with Ford and the exports that they have. We need to pay a little bit more attention to that, probably, and say, "How do we help you grow that part of your market?" as well as keeping these jobs here.

That's what we want to do is make certain that we keep those American manufacturing jobs here, that we have all of the tool-and-dye industry and the plastics and the rubber industry that do those, the just-in-time suppliers; keep those people working.

MR. MATTHEWS: Okay. So it looks to me like, Congresswoman Schakowsky, the Congress, a Democratic-controlled Congress, is going to pass a bill by the end of the week that basically carries this story over to the next administration. You're kicking the can down the road -- nothing wrong with that, perhaps, if it's the best you can do. But it looks to me like this $15 billion retooling of that money that was going to creating green jobs by retooling the industries is not going to go to pay the bills, pay the rent. That's the solution, right?

REP. SCHAKOWSKY: Yes, but with a lot of strings attached. And if they haven't used that $15 billion well by March 31st of next year, not a penny more. But Chris, certainly you're not saying that we ought to let 3.3 million jobs, after 550,000 jobs last month, go down the drain. We simply can't do that.

REP. BLACKBURN: Chris, there's a great analogy on this.

MR. MATTHEWS: Well, that's the Socratic method that you've just employed, Congresswoman, which is the tough way to answer my questions, which is to hit me back with the Socratic question. If you ask tough questions, you ought to be able to take tough questions back at you. And you've just asked me a tough question.

Despite the problems of this industry, despite the lousy management, the bad engineering, the bad marketing, the piggish way of selling huge cars that aren't good for the environment, all those decisions are terrible, yet we're stuck with the fact, if you let this thing go down, we're killing average people and probably starting a ripple effect that could be incredibly difficult for any government coming into office to fight. Is that what you're saying?

REP. SCHAKOWSKY: I'm saying that if we let these companies go down, absolutely, that there'll be this huge ripple effect in an economy that's already in trouble. But we're not just giving a carte blanche, as, by the way, we essentially did to Wall Street. We are putting strings attached.

REP. BLACKBURN: Chris, there's a great analogy --

REP. SCHAKOWSKY: And I think we will see a better industry.

REP. BLACKBURN: -- in Delta Airlines.

MR. MATTHEWS: Last thought, Marsha -- Congresswoman Blackburn. Your thought?

REP. BLACKBURN: Yes. There's a great analogy in Delta Airlines, after 19 months of restructuring, going in and preserving most of their 60,000 jobs. I think they preserved over 45,000, 48,000 jobs. They moved themselves to health. Now, they did that by going to Chapter 11 and restructuring and reorganizing and renegotiating contracts.

Now, this is a great example for the auto industry, and I think there are a lot of lessons learned there that the auto industry could apply. We need to be very serious and diligent and focused on making certain that they are healthy, they're competitive, that they're producing next-generation cars, and that they're being produced here in the United States of America.

REP. SCHAKOWSKY: Well, the families in Spring Hill, Tennessee won't be happy to hear that. They want us to do this bill.

MR. MATTHEWS: Well, I think that now that we've discovered that the auto industry is a national treasure and we have to keep it alive for national purposes -- not for profit purposes but for national purposes -- those companies have a responsibility to start producing cars in the national interest that may not make the biggest bang for the buck -- in other words, not the biggest possible car they can sell per unit, but maybe the best car per unit.

And I think that's a question. How do we introduce the public interest into the private sector? It's a great challenge. I'm not sure we're going to do it this time around.

But thank you very much, Congresswoman Schakowsky.

REP. SCHAKOWSKY: Thank you.

MR. MATTHEWS: And thank you very much, Congresswoman Marsha Blackburn, who's on the show so often.

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