MSNBC "Hardball with Chris Matthews" -Transcript

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MR. MATTHEWS: But one poll worth mentioning right now is the new Pew Poll. It shows Barack Obama is gaining more ground on McCain. Now leading -- look at this number -- no poll has this much of a spread -- 52 percent for Barack; 38 percent for McCain.

We'll begin with Congressman Chris Van Hollen of Maryland. He's chairman of the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee and also U.S. Congresswoman Heather Wilson of New Mexico.

Congressman, let me ask you first and then I want to know Congresswoman's thoughts as well. What do we make of this polling? Is there a ballooning going on right now? Is something happening that wasn't happening a week ago? Congressman Van Hollen?

REP. VAN HOLLEN: Well, I think there is growing support for Barack Obama's positive message for change and that's why you see John McCain and a lot of these Republican members of Congress using these desperate tactics trying to divide America. At this time of economic crisis, people want someone who's going to unite America. Americans are seeing that in Barack Obama and so I do think support for him continues to grow, as it does for many of our congressional candidates around the country.

MR. MATTHEWS: Congresswoman Wilson, your thoughts about this 14- percent spread in the new Pew Poll for Barack Obama?

REP. WILSON: The poll that matters is the one that happens on election day and I've said that when polls showed him up, I've said that when polls show Sen. Obama up. So that's the poll that matters. You'll see things all over the map, but I think there's actually too much focus on polls when we should really focus on issues. It's amazing to me that this late in the game the vice presidential candidate for the Democratic Party has said -- says, mark my words, this man will be tested with an international crisis. And that actually, I think, reflects his honest views as he expressed during the primary that he has concerns about Sen. Obama's experience, particularly when it comes to international affairs.

MR. MATTHEWS: No, that's not what he said. He said he will be tested by our enemies out there because he's a new president. What does that say besides that, that he will be tested?

REP. WILSON: And he also mentioned two countries in particular, the Middle East and Russia.

MR. MATTHEWS: Right. What does that tell you?

REP. WILSON: It tells me that the vice presidential candidate on the Democratic side believes that others question whether Sen. Obama is strong enough and ready enough to be president and that they will push him and test him. We don't need a president of the United States -- (inaudible) -- tested by foreign leaders.

MR. MATTHEWS: In a way that -- okay. Let me get back to Congressman Van Hollen and for your thoughts on this. It seems to me what Joe Biden was trying to do there -- and maybe it is fair game -- everything is fair game -- was to cite the historic precedent of John F. Kennedy being tested with regard to the Berlin Wall being put up in August of '61. He couldn't make -- find any other reference I can think of, it must be the Berlin Wall that went up and we're not sure where that would have gone up under Nixon or not. We don't know that, but your point -- what's your thought, Congressman?

REP. VAN HOLLEN: Well, Chris, look, I think what Joe Biden was saying very clearly is at a time when we have two wars going on, no matter who is next president, they're going to face tasks and they're going to face challenges. And I think you couldn't have a better and more eloquent spokesman testifying to not only the fact that Barack Obama is ready to be commander-in-chief, but he would be the best person to be commander-in-chief than Colin Powell, the former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, former secretary of state to this President Bush, who said in these times of challenge, both abroad and here at home, that Barack Obama's the guy who has actually shown steadiness rather than going all over the place as we saw John McCain do with respect to the economic crisis. He was all over the map, whereas Barack Obama has shown a steadiness and calm which is exactly what you want in a leader, both here at home and facing challenges from abroad.

MR. MATTHEWS: You're laughing, Congresswoman. What are you laughing at?

REP. WILSON: I can understand why Barack Obama would want to sit in the stands and watch Sen. McCain try to take action during a crisis since Sen. Obama is one of the ones who was responsible for getting us in the crisis in the first place and he is the number one recipient of contributions from Freddie and Fannie that were the spark that ignited this whole problem in the first place. I agree with Chris that this country needs leadership and that there are tremendous challenges, which is why we need Sen. McCain in the White House, not somebody who has served three and a half years in the United States Senate and has never run anything larger than a community organization.

MR. MATTHEWS: We just watched both candidates --

REP. VAN HOLLEN: Chris, if I could just say --

MR. MATTHEWS: We just watched both candidates for an hour and a half, four and a half hours total, in the last several weeks, and one of the results of that exposure, both candidates to a national audiences of 50 to 70 million people has been an 18 point hike in male support for Barack Obama -- a dramatic -- and since he already enjoyed tremendous African-American support, it's fair to assume this is white men who've come to appreciate something about him they didn't before. At the same time, Gov. Palin has dropped in our polling in terms of her unfavorability -- 14 point increase in unfavorability.

So Congresswoman Wilson, something's going on out there that makes people more respectful of Barack Obama and less respectful of Gov. Palin. What is it?

REP. WILSON: What has really changed has been since the 15th of September where we've had a crisis in the financial and banking world and irrespective of the real cause that sparked that and who is responsible for it, we have an incumbent president in the White House who is of Sen. McCain's party. And no matter what, when you have an economic problem, it doesn't -- you know, if those tables were reversed and we had a Democrat in the White House, the Democratic candidate would have gone down in the polls. Reality doesn't matter sometimes on these things, Chris, and I think what happened in mid- September with the financial crises has hurt Sen. McCain in some ways even though it's the Democrats who lit the spark.

MR. MATTHEWS: Okay. I respect you coming on. I want to tell you, Mr. Van Hollen, sometimes people are right, sometimes they're wrong and some political parties are right sometimes and wrong other times. But let me tell you the internal polls here which are fascinating. The reasons people give for supporting Sen. McCain -- and everybody likes Sen. McCain, only -- looks like the number one reason people have for supporting right now Republicans who say they're for McCain. They asked them, what's the reason why you like him? Thirty-nine percent, the highest percentage, say because he's the lesser of two evils; they didn't like the other guy. On the other side on Obama, what do you like most about excited -- over 50 percent are excited to vote for the guy. So there is a positive motive to supporting Barack Obama in our latest polling that just came out tonight. And there is a kind of a negative reason for supporting McCain.

Congresswoman, what do you make of that? This is in our polling.

REP. WILSON: Well, I think that Sen. McCain is obviously of the president's party at the moment and I also think that Sen. Obama is -- you know, he's articulate. He speaks well. The thing that concerns me about Sen. Obama is twofold. First, experience, and second, the policies when you get beyond the words, that matter to me, including things like taxes, you know, his comment about spreading the wealth around.

That's not what government is supposed to do.

REP. VAN HOLLEN: Chris?

REP. WILSON: Government -- it's not the government's money, it's the people's money and I have very profound differences with a guy who's the most liberal senator in the United States Senate.

MR. MATTHEWS: Do you like -- Congresswoman, do you think we should get rid of the progressive income tax, which redistributes wealth?

REP. WILSON: No, I don't. But I do think that the tax relief we passed in 2001 and 2003 encouraged economic growth, particularly among small businesses, which is where seven out of ten new jobs come from. And you know, at the time, Sen. Baucus, who's the Democrat head of the Finance Committee in the Senate, said that 80 percent of the wealth that comes from those two top tax brackets come from small business owners who are paying, you know, partnership, S corporations, ranches, farms -- those kind of things. So if you want to kill job creation, increase taxes on small business.

REP. VAN HOLLEN: Chris, if I could, look --

MR. MATTHEWS: Well, right now, Congressman Van Hollen, for the first time -- and this may not be fair, but for the first time our polling is showing that both candidates are equally trusted on the issue of taxes. So it's not a Republican advantage anymore like it's been for 1,000 years for some reason.

REP. VAN HOLLEN: Well, it's not because Barack -- Barack Obama's message is getting through. He's made it absolutely clear that he supports tax relief for middle class Americans. If you earn under $250,000, you're going to get more tax relief under Barack Obama's plan than John McCain. If you're one of the Fortune 500 CEOs, you're going to get a $700,000 on average tax break from John McCain. The oil companies are going to get a $4 billon tax break. So what's happening is people understand the differences on the policies.

I disagree entirely with Heather on this. The reason people are responding positively to Barack Obama is he has put forward positive ideas in terms of middle class tax cuts, in terms of an economic recovery plan, in terms of energy policy and a healthcare policy, and that's why you see these Republicans and their comments in these hate phone calls that are going around, they're trying to drag Barack Obama down. That is not what the American people are looking for.

MR. MATTHEWS: Fair enough. Fair enough. Congresswoman, I've looked at the pattern here, which we do every night of the charges made against Barack Obama as he's going up in the polls. First of all, he was a celebrity. Then we had the absurd thing about "lipstick on a pig." Then he consorted -- he palled around with terrorists, and then he was a socialist, then he was anti-American. That was a congresswoman this Friday said he's anti-American. And now, today, he's a communist. And now we're told today by a congressman from North Carolina that liberals hate Americans -- real Americans. It seems to me that the rhetoric is getting pretty fiery out there.

REP. WILSON: Well, I've seen a fire coming from Sen. Obama's rallies to. This is a tough presidential race and both sides will say strong things. I actually -- you know, I disagree with Sen. Obama's policies. I also think that some of his decisions about who he associates with raise questions about his character and if the tables were turned, if it was a Republican candidate for president who had, you know, gotten a start in his political life with someone who is unrepentant about being a leader of an organization that bombed the Pentagon or the Capitol, you bet you guys would be talking about it.

MR. MATTHEWS: So because -- let me get this straight. Because he was on a board back in the 1990s with someone who 28 years before had committed these horrific actions by being a member of the Weather Underground, you would have walked out of the room in Chicago -- had there been a better business group or a school board reform effort, you would have walked out of the room if he showed up, and he didn't. That's the difference, right?

REP. WILSON: I think you're minimizing the nature of the relationship. But even in that circumstance, would I choose to be the executive director of an organization whose board is chaired by somebody who says, yeah, I wished we had bombed America more? I wouldn't do that. I wouldn't participate in that kind of an organization because I don't want to be associated with people like that. I think that's wrong and I think it says something about me as a public leader if I say, oh, well, I'll just look the other way because I, you know, I want this job, this executive director job. I think that's wrong and I think Sen. Obama was wrong to continue that association and it's a question of character and judgment.

REP. VAN HOLLEN: Chris, can I just jump in here?

MR. MATTHEWS: Congressman Van Hollen, your thoughts on that.

REP. VAN HOLLEN: Well, listen, first of all, we've seen that John McCain's policies are the same as the George Bush policies, but now what we're finding out is the way he's running his campaign is also the same way George Bush ran his campaign. In fact, he brought on the George Bush team for his campaign. They announced very clearly, the McCain campaign, just a few weeks ago that if they talk about the economy, if they talk about the issues that American people care about, they will lose this election. So they need to change the subject and that's what you're seeing in all these accusations. They're taking the low road, trying to divide America, trying to change the subject and what you're seeing in these polls is the American people aren't falling for it. They've seen the fear-and- smear campaigns and they're not going for it. They know we face big challenges.

REP. WILSON: Chris, they've been talking about taxes and the economy at every single stop along the campaign trail. That is issue number one is what to do about the economy and it's not to raise taxes --

MR. MATTHEWS: I wonder why there -- Congresswoman, Congressman, I wonder when the air is clear two or three weeks from now, I think we'll all agree it's probably not good politics to call each other communists. Anyway, thank you, U.S. Congressman Chris Van Hollen. And you didn't do that, Congresswoman Heather Wilson. Thank you both for joining us.

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