CNN Crossfire-Transcript
CNN CROSSFIRE 16:30 May 20, 2004 Thursday
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CNN
SHOW: CNN CROSSFIRE 16:30
May 20, 2004 Thursday
SECTION: News; International
HEADLINE: President Bush Attempts to Rally Republicans
GUESTS: Jan Schakowsky, John Shadegg
BYLINE: Wolf Blitzer, James Carville, Robert Novak, Tucker Carlson, Paul Begala
HIGHLIGHT:
President Bush goes to Capitol Hill trying to rally Republican lawmakers around his Iraq plan. With continued fighting and the prisoner abuse scandal, are they still willing to support him?
BODY:
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CARLSON: Welcome back.
Making the rounds on Capitol Hill today, not only President Bush, but his Democratic rival, John Kerry. Bush's visit was aimed at rallying Republican lawmakers around his plan for Iraq. They're nervous. He tried to make them feel better. The cornerstone of that plan, handing over at least partial governing authority to the Iraqis on June 30.
In the CROSSFIRE today to debate all of this, Congresswoman Jan Schakowsky, a Democrat of Illinois, and Republican Congressman John Shadegg of Arizona.
Welcome.
(APPLAUSE)
REP. JOHN SHADEGG ®, ARIZONA: Thank you.
REP. JAN SCHAKOWSKY (D), ILLINOIS: Thank you.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Congressman Shadegg, the president went up to speak with you guys today to give you a briefing on how his brilliant policy for the occupation of Iraq is working. Would you tell us some of the highlights the president told you about how well things are going in Iraq?
SHADEGG: Well, I think you missed the point. He came because it's the beginning of the break and he's speaking to his troops on Capitol Hill. He came a year ago at the same time. I think it's almost now become tradition for the president to come to the Hill on the beginning of a break, a break like this, where we will discuss national policy.
He got a couple of standing ovations talking about how we're proceeding both in the war in Iraq and in the overall war on terror.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Well, what good did-what would-what would-his policy, you must be-you think it's working brilliantly. What are some elements of how well it's working? What examples did he give you of how well this thing is going?
SHADEGG: Well, James, I think you can look at the fact that everybody knows that the battle plan goes out the window the minute the first shot is fired.
Quite frankly, what his plan is, is to hand over power to the Iraqi people as we planned to do on the schedule that we announced and then begin to have them take responsibility for themselves, to assist that government, to have the United Nations play a role in the selection of that government to enhance its credibility and to allow the Iraqi people to begin the process of self-determination.
And that's exactly the road we're progressing down. With regard to what we predicted, he predicted and he predicted that the violence would get much worse between now and the handover. And it is. And they're trying to do everything they can to disrupt us. And the question will come, what happens after the handover. Will the people who despise the idea that Iraqis might govern themselves and might make their own decisions continue to kill wantonly their fellow citizens as we go forward after the handover of power?
Hopefully, they won't. And, hopefully, we can move forward to achieve a self-sustaining Iraqi government that reflects the people and doesn't repress them.
CARLSON: Congresswoman Schakowsky, I'm struck, as I'm sure you are, by the frenzy of hatefulness Democrats have been driven into by Bush.
To give you one example, this is what Nancy Pelosi, the House minority leader, your leader, said about Bush after his visit today to Capitol Hill-quote-"Bush is an incompetent leader. In fact, he's not a leader. He's a person who has no judgment, no experience, no knowledge of the subjects he has to decide on. He has on his shoulders the deaths of many more troops because he would not heed the advice of his own State Department of what to expect after May 1, when he declared combat over. The shallowness he has brought to the office has not changed since he got there."
In other words, he's an idiot and a murderer. She sounds like Michael Moore. And I'm wondering, I'm wondering, can you be this irresponsible and run a party?
CARVILLE: When are we going to take the gloves off and quite this mealymouthed talk about Bush? Congresswoman Pelosi, hit the man if you're going to hit him.
(CROSSTALK)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
SCHAKOWSKY: Well, I agree with you, James. How about Trent Lott, who said, leadership is fine, but leadership to do what? They're running short on fuel in terms of ideas that turn people on; 62 percent of Americans now say that the country is going in the wrong direction.
Over half of Americans say that this war was not worth it in terms of dollars and lives that have been lost. And now we're there creating posters for al Qaeda recruitment with the kind of abuses that we're bringing to the prisons in Iraq. So this is a bloody mess.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Congresswoman, I think you actually-those are totally fair points, worth debating. We debate them a lot on CROSSFIRE.
I don't think it's fair to call a person an idiot, as Nancy Pelosi called the president. He's incompetent.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: He has no knowledge and that he's responsible for the deaths of our troops.
SHADEGG: The extreme rhetoric
(CROSSTALK)
SHADEGG: It was the extreme rhetoric that was so offensive. That kind of extreme rhetoric, calling the president names, saying he isn't a leader, he has no experience in anything, doesn't add to the debate over the legitimate points that we have just discussed here and were just brought out by my colleague's points.
SCHAKOWSKY: I think many Americans welcome fact that our leader is telling the facts about this president and in fact they agree with her.
CARLSON: So he's an idiot?
CARVILLE: No, she said he was incompetent, which is the truth. Why can't people speak the truth in America?
(APPLAUSE)
SCHAKOWSKY: She did not say he was
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Congresswoman Pelosi, all she did was tell the truth.
CARLSON: He has no judgment, no leadership and no knowledge? Do you believe that, Congresswoman Schakowsky?
SHADEGG: She clearly attacked him personally, but not on the merits. She didn't say that...
(CROSSTALK)
SCHAKOWSKY: Leadership-leadership is fine, but leadership to do what? That's Trent Lott. OK, so he's softened it a little, same message. The man is not a leader in the right direction.
SHADEGG: I absolutely disagree. The man is in fact leading in the war on terror and taking the country where we need to go in the war on terror. And your candidate, John Kerry, has no different agenda for either the war on terror or the war in Iraq.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
SCHAKOWSKY: That's exactly not true. That's exactly not true.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Congressman Shadegg, let's go back to the president's meeting, because maybe-one of the big issues that Americans are facing every day are health care costs have gone 40 percent since this administration came in. Give me some things that the president told you guys about a plan that he has to bring down health care costs today.
SHADEGG: Well, health care costs have been going up not just in this understand, but for years, long years before this administration was in place.
The president brought about a restraint in terms of helping people with health care costs in the passage of the Medicare prescription drug bill. And, again, talk about the style of the debate, rather than talking about the fact that the drug discount card is doing some American seniors some good and helping on the issue, all the Democrats want to do is attack it.
(CROSSTALK)
SCHAKOWSKY: Congressman, you did not vote for that bill.
SHADEGG: No, you talked about what the president has put on the table. He's put on health care tax credits for America's most needy people, given them a tax credit, a refundable tax credit, to allow them to go out and get the held care they need. That's a positive agenda item. And it's part of the president's agenda to move forward. You asked what
(CROSSTALK)
SCHAKOWSKY: If I could, the congressman did not vote for the Medicare bill. I think he was saying right away himself that this was not a bill that was going to lower costs for seniors, that this was a bill that was going to
(CROSSTALK)
SHADEGG: I don't think you know why I didn't vote for the bill. I think I know why I didn't vote for the bill.
But I did in fact draft the language that was the drug discount card. And I think the drug discount card is doing something for America. I had my problems with the bill.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Congresswoman Schakowsky...
SCHAKOWSKY: Yes.
CARLSON: Congresswoman Schakowsky, John Kerry made news fairly recently. It hasn't been much noticed. I want to bring it to your attention.
He told the Associated Press recently that he actually has a plan to get American troops home soon from Iraq. Here's what he said. He promised to avert a quagmire saying-quote-"It will not take long to do what is necessary in Iraq. It will not be like Vietnam. I'll get our troops home from Iraq with honor and with the interests of our country properly protected."
He essentially is saying what Ralph Nader is saying, I'm going to bring home our troops soon. He hasn't explained how he's going to do this. Do you have any insight into that? It's probably the question everyone wants to know.
SCHAKOWSKY: What he is saying is that this president is incapable of ending this war in Iraq in any kind of way that brings dignity to the United States of America.
And that is because it is going
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: No, this was not an attack on Bush. He was saying what he was going to do. No, Kerry was saying what he is going to do.
SCHAKOWSKY: Now let me answer that.
(CROSSTALK)
SCHAKOWSKY: He has been saying that it's going to take an international effort in order to bring some stability to Iraq. Our president right now cannot in any meaningful way bring in the world community. John Kerry can. And when we do, then we can put an Iraqi face on it. We can help, have the international community, and our troops can come home.
SHADEGG: With all due respect, that's not what the question was about. The question wasn't about Bush. The question was about John Kerry.
(CROSSTALK)
SCHAKOWSKY: I just said that's how Kerry is going to do that.
(CROSSTALK)
SHADEGG: ... pull our troops out and come home no matter what, as have you. Your position is, pull out, give up, go home, do nothing.
SCHAKOWSKY: No, absolutely...
SHADEGG: And indeed you opposed the war to begin with, which I understand is a position
(CROSSTALK)
SCHAKOWSKY: And I was right. And I was right. And most Americans think that this war was not worth fighting, absolutely.
(CROSSTALK)
SHADEGG: I think the people of Iraq would say that they're free now. They're out from under a repressive dictator. And we need to..
(CROSSTALK)
(BELL RINGING)
CARLSON: I'm sorry. Congresswoman Schakowsky, Mr. Shadegg, we are just seconds away from consensus. I feel like you're almost agreeing.
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: We've got to take a quick commercial break. And we'll be right back.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Next, in "Rapid Fire," we'll ask our guests if John Kerry will ever be able to settle on a campaign slogan.
And if you log on to CROSSFIRE's interactive Thursday, tell us what you think about the presidential campaign. We'll be reading some of your e-mails later. Again, no profanity. We can't read it, FCC regulations.
Right after the break, what more U.S. troops and Iraqi troops were looking for when they raided Ahmad Chalabi's compound in Iraq, Wolf Blitzer will tell us.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington.
Coming up at the top of the hour, a huge falling-out with one of America's top Iraqi allies after a raid on his house, what it means for the future of Iraq.
Bloody battles in Gaza, with Palestinians now reporting 40 dead in three days of relentless violence.
And with the Athens Olympics now just 85 days away, heightened concern about guarding the Games from terrorism.
Plus, President Bush's twin daughters deciding they now want to become more visible, pitching in for their dad's campaign.
Those stories, much more, only minutes away on "WOLF BLITZER REPORTS."
Now back to CROSSFIRE.
CARVILLE: It's time for "Rapid Fire," where we ask the questions faster than Donald Rumsfeld can make excuses about Iraq.
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: We're talking about visits to Capitol Hill today by both President Bush and Senator John Kerry.
In the CROSSFIRE, Congressman John Shadegg, Republican of the great state of Arizona, and Democratic Congresswoman Jan Schakowsky of the equally great state of Illinois.
CARLSON: Congresswoman Schakowsky, John Kerry picked his ninth campaign slogan this week. It's, let America be America again. Briefly, do you have any clue what that means?
(LAUGHTER)
SCHAKOWSKY: Yes, it means that this-it means that this administration has turned the clock back on all the values that America holds dear.
(LAUGHTER)
SCHAKOWSKY: Exactly, human rights, civil rights, environment, our commitment to education and health care. And so we want America to be what it was and to live up to its values.
CARLSON: Back to the future. All right.
CARVILLE: Congressman Shadegg, in the president's remarks to the Republicans on the Hill today, how many times did he mention the word deficit?
SHADEGG: He did not mention the word deficit.
CARVILLE: Oh.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Congresswoman Schakowsky, the grade moral leader of the Democratic Party, Senator Robert Byrd, a former recruiter for the Ku Klux Klan, said the other day about John Kerry: "All he needs to say is, I was there in Vietnam. I went to fight. I fought. I carry the scars of battle."
Do you think that's all John Kerry needs to say? Is former kleagle Byrd right?
SCHAKOWSKY: You know, John Kerry is a war hero. I think that fact stands up very well when you're running for president of the United States in a time of war. And I think that that is a very important part of his message and far better than this president, vice president or anyone else around him can say.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Why do people-Congressman Shadegg, why do people like Tucker Carlson attack Senator Byrd for something that he did 60 years ago, but say it's unfair for us to attack President Bush for something he did 32 years ago?
(BELL RINGING)
CARVILLE: Hello?
CARLSON: That's an excellent answer, Congressman.
(CROSSTALK)
SHADEGG: Nobody said it's unfair for you to discuss-to attack President Bush. You can attack President Bush all you want. As a matter of fact, one of Tucker's questions was that your attack on President Bush was nothing but a personal attack. It had nothing to do with the merits of this administration.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: We are out completely of time.
(CROSSTALK)
SHADEGG: ... the economy is coming back very strong.
CARLSON: Thank you.
Congresswoman Schakowsky, Congressman Shadegg, thanks a lot for joining us. We appreciate it.
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
SCHAKOWSKY: Thank you very much.
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