National Public Radio Weekend All Things Considered - Transcript

National Public Radio (NPR)

SHOW: Weekend All Things Considered (8:00 PM ET) - NPR

HEADLINE: Senators John Cornyn and Evan Bayh discuss the political fallout of the Iraq War and the Abu Ghraib prison abuse scandal

ANCHORS: LINDA WERTHEIMER

BODY:
LINDA WERTHEIMER, host:

On this holiday weekend, we checked in with two members of the Senate Armed Services Committee, which has held a series of hearings looking into the way the administration is handling the Abu Ghraib prison scandal. There are now a number of investigations, mostly being carried out by the military, on events at Abu Ghraib. Just a few days after the committee heard from General Ricardo Sanchez, the commander in Iraq, the announcement was made that Sanchez would be replaced. I asked two members of the committee if they knew when they talked to General Sanchez that he was on his way out. First, Senator John Cornyn, Republican of Texas.

Did you know that General Sanchez was about to be rotated out in a way that looks a bit like he is being pushed aside?

Senator JOHN CORNYN (Republican, Texas): No, I didn't know that.

WERTHEIMER: Did you have any awareness, or do you have any awareness, that General Sanchez might have to take the fall for what has gone on at Abu Ghraib himself?

Sen. CORNYN: I don't think we know the answer to all that. There are at least six investigations that have been commissioned and are ongoing. I think the next one we're expecting to hear from is General Fay. But we did hear from General Taguba, who I thought conducted a rather meticulous, thorough investigation and gave us a lot of insight into what happened there, and gave me some confidence that while there were people who certainly violated the trust of the American people by acting criminally and otherwise inappropriately, that I was encouraged by the fact that such a thorough investigation and professional investigation had been done by General Taguba and that others were under way.

WERTHEIMER: When I asked Senator Evan Bayh, Democrat of Indiana, about General Sanchez, he had almost exactly the same answer.

Senator EVAN BAYH (Democrat, Indiana): No, I had no idea.

WERTHEIMER: I asked the senators if they now thought that General Sanchez was being moved out of Iraq because Abu Ghraib happened on his watch; both said they don't know yet. Senator Bayh.

Sen. BAYH: There's been a good deal of public speculation that this may be because of some lack of performance on his part or some of the allegations that have come out. I just think we don't know yet, and I think it's unfair to impugn the man's, you know, integrity or performance through inference. I think as the criminal justice system runs its course, as these investigations run this course, the full truth will come out. And if that touches on General Sanchez, then, you know, there may be an 'Ah, that's what was going on' kind of moment, or it may be that what you see is what you get, and he's simply being rotated out after a period of time there.

WERTHEIMER: Senator Evan Bayh also said sunshine is the best disinfectant where a matter like Abu Ghraib is concerned.

Sen. BAYH: The critical difference between how we deal with abuses like this and our adversaries deal with abuses is that when we find things that go on like this that shouldn't go on, we get to the bottom of it. We will hold people accountable. The individual guards all the way up the chain of command is-wherever the evidence leads. There will be trials; people may go to jail for long periods of time because of this. And we need to have as much sunshine as possible because that will show the people of Iraq and the Islamic world that we believe what we say-that we mean what we say when we stand for justice and the rule of law, in contrast to the people who beheaded Nicholas Berg and carry out these assassinations on a daily basis. They perpetrate acts of violence because that's what they stand for.

WERTHEIMER: Senator Cornyn, while supporting thorough investigations, says he does have concerns about all the attention still being given to what has happened at Abu Ghraib.

Sen. CORNYN: I worry that these congressional hearings are a distraction from winning the war at the most fragile time in our effort in Iraq. I was very concerned when I heard Secretary Rumsfeld say on at least two occasions that he is not doing anything else.

WERTHEIMER: The pictures and the revelations that have come out of the prison have contributed to a growing concern by the American people that things are not going well in Iraq. Over the last few weeks, polls have indicated that people no longer approve of the way President Bush has conducted the war. I asked Senator Cornyn about Republicans in Texas. They presumably are going to strongly back the president in the coming election, but do they have problems with the way the administration has appeared to change course in dealing with some of the difficult security issues in Iraq?

Sen. CORNYN: Well, they probably don't follow them with the sort of detail that we do on Capitol Hill, or in the news media generally. But I would say that they don't see retreat; they see resoluteness, I believe. And they do-and I believe the president made very clear the other night, I guess it was Monday night, with his five-point plan, what the plan is for the transition of government from the occupation by the Coalition Provisional Authority now to a caretaker Iraqi government and then to Iraqi self-government.

WERTHEIMER: The home state of Senator Evan Bayh is also strongly Republican. He had some advice for the Democratic presidential candidate. Senator Bayh said his constituents are suspending judgment on the war, but they suspect the administration has made mistakes in Iraq which will mean success there is hanging in the balance.

Sen. BAYH: What they're looking for from Senator Kerry is a sensible alternative. And in a state like ours, that the choice is not between strength and weakness-our state will choose strength every time-but that the foreign policy and the policy in Iraq is, in fact, one between a policy that is effective and one that may have been ineffective in some ways. I think-so that our strength can be harnessed in ways that truly protect our country rather than squander it. I think that that is the approach that Senator Kerry needs to take. And I think the citizens of our state will be making judgments on this as we approach November and that they're somewhat in flux right now but still, on balance, supporting the president, even though they have growing concerns.

WERTHEIMER: That was Senator Evan Bayh of Indiana. We also talked to Senator John Cornyn of Texas. Both serve on the Armed Services Committee in the Senate.