PBS's The Charlie Rose Show

Interview

PBS's The Charlie Rose Show

CHARLIE ROSE, HOST: Welcome to the broadcast.

Tonight, General David Petraeus and Ambassador Ryan Crocker testified before Congress. We`ll talk to Senators Jack Reed of Rhode Island; Jeff Sessions of Alabama; and General Jack Keane.

We turn to a lighter moment with four of the founders of new Web site for women called wowOwow.com: Liz Smith, Joni Evans, Mary Wells and Leslie Stahl.

Perspectives on the Petraeus/Crocker hearings and a Web site geared for women next.

ANNOUNCER: From our studios in New York City, this is CHARLIE ROSE.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHARLIE ROSE: General David Petraeus and Ambassador Ryan Crocker delivered their long-awaited testimony before Congress today. They reported significant but uneven progress in security and recommended a pause in the withdrawal of U.S. troops after July. They also warned of the consequences of a major U.S. departure at this stage. Here is a part of their testimonies earlier today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEN. DAVID PETRAEUS, COMMANDING GENERAL, MULTINATIONAL FORCES, IRAQ: A failed state in Iraq would pose serious consequences for the greater fight against al Qaeda, for regional stability, for the already existing humanitarian crisis in Iraq, and for the efforts to counter malign Iranian influence. After weighing these factors, I recommended to my chain of command that we continue the drawdown of the surge combat forces, and that upon the withdrawal of the last surge brigade combat team in July, we undertake a 45-day period of consolidation and evaluation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RYAN CROCKER, AMBASSADOR TO IRAQ: As monumental as the last five years have been in Iraq, Iraqis, Americans and the world ultimately will judge us far more on the basis of what will happen than what has happened. In the end, how we leave and what we leave behind will be more important than how we came.

Our current course is hard, but it is working. Progress is real, although still fragile. We need to stay with it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHARLIE ROSE: The top U.S. officials in Iraq faced tough questioning from lawmakers about their recommendations.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Could you give me a direct answer? In your judgment, was the Iraqi government operation in Basra properly and carefully planned, and were the preparations adequate? Could you give me a direct answer?

PETRAEUS: Sir, the answer is, again, it could have been much better planned. It was not adequately planned or prepared.

SEN. HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON (D-NY), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Does the administration plan to submit this agreement to our Congress?

CROCKER: At this point, Senator, we do not anticipate that the agreements will have within them any elements that would require the advice and consent procedure. We intend to negotiate this as an executive agreement.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHARLIE ROSE: Joining me now from Washington, Democratic Senator Jack Reed from Rhode Island; Republican Senator Jeff Sessions from Alabama. They were among those who questioned General Petraeus and Ambassador Crocker today.

Also joining us, retired General Jack Keane, a former Army vice chief of staff. He was an early advocate of the troop surge and he recently returned from Iraq.

I am pleased to have the three of them here.

Let me first go -- and Senator Reed, tell me what you learned today and what you thought was important about what General Petraeus said.

SEN. JACK REED (D), RHODE ISLAND: Well, I think both General Petraeus and Ambassador Crocker are impressive personalities. They talked about some progress that has been made, but the political issues are still, I think, the most critical ones. And the recent episode at Basra illustrates profound political problems within the Shia community.

There`s a struggle for power, and that struggle could break out at any moment in serious violence, which I think would cause further instability. But ultimately, all of it underscores the fact that the real solution is a political one.

Our forces might have bought some time, but the Iraqis to date, I don`t think, have used that time as effectively as they should, as they must. And we have to, I think, begin to think about a policy which begins to disengage and redeploy our forces and shift the burden we hope to the Iraqis.

CHARLIE ROSE: OK. Did anything you heard today from either Petraeus or Crocker cause you to change or question what you believe going into today`s sessions?

JACK REED: No, I don`t think so, because I think I and my colleagues have believed, thought that they would present a report that, one, talked about progress, but also, because they`re fair-minded gentlemen, remind everyone that it`s fragile, it`s reversible. And the most critical issues are not so much the tactical disposition of our forces. It`s the political issues within the state of Iraq, and those are difficult to determine, difficult to engage. And frankly, at the end of the day, they simply said we`re going to sort of maintain the current status quo, there`s no significant change.

I think that was what was expected. And that`s what they said.

CHARLIE ROSE: Now, Senator Sessions, how did you see it?

SEN. JEFF SESSIONS (R), ALABAMA: Well, I thought both of them did brilliantly. And of course General Petraeus is one of the most outstanding people I`ve ever met in the military uniform.

I thought we had some new information about the nature of Maliki`s movement of troops into Basra, in the south, where -- to confront the Shia militia. Remember that Maliki`s base support is Shia in the country. Yet, he moved quite a number of troops, according to General Petraeus, quicker than really was militarily advisable.

But he demonstrated some leadership. And he took on these special groups that are tied, some of them, to Iran. And he went after them and got a great deal of public support for it. So even though he perhaps should have been more careful about how he executed that operation, I think it did indicate that this government is getting maybe some legs, a bit of confidence, and willing to take on the Shia militia.

The al Qaeda has clearly been damaged severely. Their areas of operation are down 80, 90 percent. Now we have some problem s with the Shia militia, and they`re taking on those, too.

So, all in all, I thought that was pretty good news. And again, I thought they did an excellent job.

CHARLIE ROSE: So you don`t think -- so you think from the United States` point of view, what the Maliki government did in Basra, and in taking on the militia, was a positive thing notwithstanding some questioning about how they conducted the fight and what they did during the fighting?

SESSIONS: Well, that`s correct. General Petraeus said he -- they told him only late what they wanted to do. He advised them to go slower and prepare more meticulously. They decided to go immediately, sent almost a division, over 10,000 troops, apparently, and they had some difficulties.

But again, the central government of the sovereign state of Iraq took action against Shia extremists, some of which are being supported by Iran, and received great public support for it even though it didn`t end as decisively as we would like to have seen it. So I thought that was good news, yes.

And Ambassador Crocker indicated that he didn`t consider this some -- he was reluctant -- to use the phrase a watershed event. But you could tell he thought history might record this as a fairly important event in that Maliki and the Maliki government initiated this kind of strong action on their own.

CHARLIE ROSE: Jack Keane, you have been there recently, and you have some basis in your conversations to measure this. How do you think the Iraqi army performed under Maliki, and what does it portend for the future?

GEN. JACK KEANE (RET.), FMR. VICE CHAIR OF STAFF, U.S. ARMY: There`s been a stunning achievement in Iraq that, you know, General Petraeus doesn`t want to be triumphant about and understate, but the fact that the Sunni sheik leaders have reconciled with the government of Iraq, have stopped the violence, are no longer fighting the United States and us, and have truly surrendered in a sense and given us 90,000 of their sons to help us, is the reconciliation that we were seeking using the so-called national benchmarks to force them into a nonviolent circumstance. They`re seeking their political objectives now using political means and no longer violence. That is a remarkable achievement.

CHARLIE ROSE: Agreed, but is it a -- it`s a reconciliation with the United States and the fight against al Qaeda. Is it a reconciliation with a government that is predominantly Shia?

JACK KEANE: It absolutely is. I`ve spent a lot of time talk to go the sheiks and the tribal leaders on my last visit, as I did the time before. And they made a strategic decision to reconcile with the Shia- dominated government and take its chances with them, certainly to leverage the United States while we are there, and having more influence over that government than we have had in the past. And that certainly is one of their strategies. But make no mistake about it, they know their reconciling with the government of Iraq.

The recent poll indicates that 90 percent of the Sunnis are going to vote in the provincial election in 2008 and in the general election. Look it, that is what we wanted. They`re joining the political process, and the surge, the security that`s taking place in the central region, has provided that opportunity to take place.

Also, on the national benchmarks, I don`t know why we have such difficulty admitting the fact that there`s been definable progress there. Twelve of the 18 have been passed. Four of the six major legislative initiatives are passed to include amnesty, de-ba`athification, semi- autonomous regions, and provincial elections.

That is dramatic in and of itself. And, you know, the Iraqi government, you know, deserves to get some credit for all of that in terms of what they`ve achieved here in the last number of months.

CHARLIE ROSE: But as you know, General Petraeus said that the security was improved but still fragile and reversible.

JACK KEANE: The security situation, here`s how I see it. The central region is relatively secure and stable. We have to finish the al Qaeda up north.

I personally believe they`re already operationally defeated. And when we look at it through the prism of `09 and `10, we will see that. We`ll finish these guys off in Mosul in the next number of months.

And now we`re turning to the Iranian influence in the south. And look at, this is a campaign that is going to last into the summer, and maybe early fall. And we`re judging Maliki on his first few steps in the campaign.

And yes, he didn`t plan it right. Yes, he didn`t coordinate it right. He`s an impulsive guy. But the truth is his instincts instincts were right.

He`s going to get after this problem. And he wants to be in the lead. He knows he needs our help.

It`s going to be a more measured approach from this point out. And I think this thing is going to go faster than people think.

They`re not the tough-minded and battle-hardened and tested al Qaeda or the Sunni insurgents. We apply pressure, they`re going to seek reconciliation pretty quickly. And some of it has already been happening in the last few days.

CHARLIE ROSE: We`ll go back to Senators Reed and Sessions.

Do you think that what Petraeus and Crocker said will change the dynamic about how we see troop -- how Congress sees troop presence and troop withdrawal?

SESSIONS: Well, I would say it this way -- that last time he testified, he was very cautious about setting forth the progress that was beginning to show. And some doubted there was real progress. But we`ve got a 60 percent reduction in violence, whole areas of the country have eliminated al Qaeda where they were very strong before.

So I think his credibility is extremely high right now. And if he tells us he needs a pause for a few months because to pull out now at the same pace we will have eliminated or drawn down the entire surge by the summer, and he needs a little pause after that occurs, I think Congress ought to give him that respect. Because in the long run, what we want to do is be successful, not to flip around based on polling data.

We need to follow the advice about generals, and we`ve got a general who is not overstating his case. I think General Keane is correct. He`s almost understating it, and the progress that he`s made. And I`m just -- I couldn`t be happier.

A year ago I was very worried, Charlie. I`ve got to tell you, I wasn`t -- our phrase was, "Let`s give General Petraeus a chance." We`ve given him a chance, and his success exceeds what I think almost anybody could have predicted at this point.

CHARLIE ROSE: And what are you -- what are you optimistic about that can be achieved?

SESSIONS: Well, you know, the most optimistic, open person I`ve heard speak is General Keane just a few moments ago. I want to believe that what he said can happen.

He is an experienced general. He`s been over there repeatedly. His advice has been sound almost every time it`s been given. And his optimism is very encouraging to me, frankly.

CHARLIE ROSE: Do you share the optimism, Senator Reed?

JACK REED: No, not really. I think there`s significant fault lines, political fault lines, throughout the country.

There are progress in Anbar province. I think the Sunni sheiks, as General Keane described, decided their threat was not the United States or the Maliki government, but al Qaeda. They joined forces. But there are about 60,000 Sunni fighters organized as the Sons of Iraq which have not yet been integrated into the Shia government, and there seems to be reluctance. In fact, I think that`s one of the concerns General Petraeus expressed in several publications, that they won`t be integrated, that they`ll be a force and being for a potential conflict ahead.

Also, I think you have a situation now where Maliki has declared that he`s going to try to settle this issue with Muqtada al-Sadr. And that could lead to I think increased violence.

It`s difficult to talk about the levels of violence. Just last month, or this month of March, there`s been an increase in violence. We`ve lost 12 soldiers in the last few days. So that could go up significantly. But the real question I think has to be cast not within simply the confines of Iraq, but much broader.

There are regional issues we have to deal with.

CHARLIE ROSE: Like?

JACK REED: We`re underresourcing our troops. Afghanistan, we`re underresourcing our forces in Afghanistan.

You`ve seen a political dynamic in Pakistan that is changing, that might in fact provide more protection to al Qaeda leadership than they deserve, frankly. We have a situation, a real challenge in Afghanistan.

And the other issue here in terms of our overall participation in Iraq is the huge pressure it`s putting on our military forces, particularly Army. This is the worst readiness condition that I`ve seen in many, many years in terms of our military force in terms of training, personnel, equipment.

We`re seeing significant issues with respect to these multiple deployments over 15 months. And at some point we have to recognize that and begin to redeploy our forces. And I don`t think that will change unless we readapt our strategy in Iraq.

The other point I would make, too, is that this issue of reconciliation, there has been progress. There`s been legislation passed, but even Ambassador Crocker points out the real key is implementation. Will the Maliki government be serious about this legislation? That remains to be seen.

But I think we have to send a signal to them that this is really their fight. We`ve done a lot. We`ll do more. But not open-ended commitment as I think many are suggesting.

CHARLIE ROSE: And your argument is that we send that signal by going ahead with the planned drawdown even if it means going beyond the pre-surge levels?

JACK REED: I think it sends a signal that we are redeploying our forces, we`re bringing them down. No arbitrary, rigid timeline, but the policy of the United States is to reduce our forces continuously. And to do that in a way not so much by talking about arbitrarily numbers, but missions: force protection, obviously, training Iraqi security forces, and then also maintaining a counterterrorism mission. But the bulk of the fighting and the bulk of the effort should be left up to the Iraqis. And also, again, most of the issues that we find I think are political in nature, not simply tactical.

CHARLIE ROSE: General Keane, what do you disagree with in terms of what Senator Reed just said?

JACK KEANE: Well, I certainly agree that there`s significant political issues in Iraq, and there will be political issues in Iraq 10 or 20 years from now. I mean, that`s the reality of that part of the country. But the progress is significant on the political side as well. And I think we need to give them credit for that.

Now, sure, they have to implement those laws, but the toughest thing they had to do was to pass those laws. And that took the art of compromise, which is not part of the culture of Iraq. And they`re growing into that culture that we have so well defined in our own country.

In terms of the security situation, the Sons of Iraq program is 91,000 people. It`s in six provinces, not just in Anbar. It`s the entire central region of Iraq, stretching up to south of Mosul. It is an extraordinary movement in and of itself.

There`s never been any plans to put 91,000 people, most of whom are illiterate, 60 percent of them who have been fighting us, and put them into the government of Iraq. That doesn`t make any sense I don`t think to anybody.

The fact of the matter is, is what do we do with those people? A certain percentage of them will go in as police and as Iraqi army forces after they have been properly vetted. And then the others, the plan is to enter them into vocational and technical training to give them some skills so that they can enter into the economic vibrancy of Iraq. And that requires some patience and some long-term commitment.

Now, does that mean by doing that that somehow those 91,000 -- and the real focus should be on their leaders, the sheiks and the tribal leaders, who I`ve spent time talking to. They agree with that program. They welcome that program.

They do not want all of their people in the police or the Iraqi security forces. They want them to participate in the full fabric of social and economic life in Iraq. And the fact that the government is willing to take on some of these issues, they deserve some credit for it.

Now, are they skeptical about this government? Of course they are. And -- because this is a Shia- dominated government and they know that there`s been tension in the past. But in the same respect, they`re not going to flip because of this and somehow start taking up arms against us again.

That is not in the near term an option for them. They have made a huge, strategic political decision to reconcile with the government of Iraq, and then to participate in the political process this fall in the provincial elections and in the general elections so they can stake a much larger claim to what they believe is rightfully theirs.

CHARLIE ROSE: And has the government of Iraq made a major political decision to reconcile with them?

JACK KEANE: Yes, I think initially they were stunned by -- just to be frank about it, they were stunned by how overwhelming it was.

They, like Senator Reed, thought this was just about Anbar province, where it`s Sunnis and homogeneous and a litt bit easier to understand. But as it spread through the central region, north and south of Baghdad, they were alarmed by the magnitude of it and what that really meant.

And as they have spent time with it, now they see this as a major political step forward that the tribal leaders and the sheiks have taken. And government officials have spoken to these sheiks and tribal leaders who have made these decisions as well, on many, many occasions.

That doesn`t mean that the Maliki government doesn`t have some concerns about it. Of course they do. I mean, you can understand that.

They`ve lived under 35 years of terror and psychological, emotional repression by a Sunni regime. And they`re somewhat spooked about all of that. But they also know the future Iraq lies in Sunni enfranchisement, political enfranchisement, and these sheiks and tribal leaders are offering them that very thing.

And they`re moving towards it. Admittedly, probably more cautionary than what we would want, but also somewhat understandable given their historic past.

CHARLIE ROSE: Do we have leverage with them?

JACK KEANE: The Iraqi government? You bet you.

CHARLIE ROSE: All right.

JACK KEANE: This is a myth about...

CHARLIE ROSE: But why haven`t they -- if that`s true, if it is true, why haven`t they moved with more velocity to create the reconciliation?

JACK KEANE: Well, I think they have. I mean, they...

CHARLIE ROSE: So you have no qualms about the amount of reconciliation that has been initiated by the Maliki government over the last year?

JACK KEANE: Well, let`s let your viewers judge. I mean, they`ve granted them amnesty. This was a major issue and fought and discussed in the council of representatives.

They`ve granted them -- they passed a de-ba`athification law which formally entitles them. I`m not talking about the 91,000, I`m talking about Sunnis at large, which enter into the millions, to participate in the full fabric of government and social life in Iraq.

And now they clearly want them to have provincial elections in their part of the country so that they can participate in the political fabric of life. I think that`s significant.

CHARLIE ROSE: Senator Sessions, tell me how you see in looking beyond the Petraeus testimony and in the context of what General Keane has said to me, how you see the continued American presence. As you know, in your party there`s been some discussion about what Senator McCain, the presumptive nominee, has said.

SESSIONS: Well, all of us really do want to see the troop levels drawn down. General Petraeus will have eliminated the surge by summer. And he wants a pause for a few months. But that presupposes the drawdown will continue after that. And I certainly hope that we can.

I think that under most circumstances, Congress will be prepared to allow a drawdown based on conditions on the ground with a goal of having a successful outcome in Iraq. That would be our -- should be what this nation is committed to, a successful outcome, not to see how quickly we can draw troops out.

Now, if certain people are elected president, I think we`ll have a real genuine debate about it. But I frankly think some reality has got to sink in.

We`re just not able to precipitously jerk out brigades from various areas of Iraq just for reasons -- how destabilizing they can be, to do that without preparing for it. We need to prepare for every withdrawal. That takes some time.

But I hope we`ll be on a downward movement. I certainly do. It`s certainly -- our military has performed magnificently.

I don`t suggest either that this is permanent progress. He did -- General Petraeus said it was fragile.

CHARLIE ROSE: Right.

SESSIONS: But they`ve performed magnificently. They served on -- many of them -- 15 months, more than we`d like them to serve. We do need to be bringing these troop levels down.

CHARLIE ROSE: What do you expect the president will say at the end of the week?

SESSIONS: You know, I don`t know. I think he will have to just say that real progress has been made, because I think that`s the absolute truth.

Senator Lieberman today made a comment I thought was sort of apt. He said some people want to see no progress, hear no progress, and acknowledge no progress.

There has been real progress. And the American people will feel better about what`s happening if they really now can see truthfully that progress has been made under this new style of leadership.

CHARLIE ROSE: Finally, Senator Reed, is it possible that, regardless of what -- whether Senator Clinton or Senator Obama -- and if you look at the numbers, it looks more like Senator Obama -- is the Democratic nominee, and let`s suppose he is elected, Senator Obama. He`s out there with a plan to have the Iraqi army take over everything within 16 months, and his argument is that`s the only way to send a signal to the Iraqi government, but they have to do that by saying you have a date.

Isn`t it likely that the Democratic -- if Senator Obama is elected, for example, he`s going to go into office on January 21st and say, where are we in Iraq and, therefore, what do we do? He`s going to look at it with fresh eyes, and it will depend a lot about what`s happening on the ground.

JACK REED: I think it will depend a great deal on what`s happening on the ground, but I think the overall premise and the overall strategy makes sense, which is to clearly indicate we are coming out very deliberately, that there`s no rigid time frame. But we`re coming out.

We`re going to shift missions as a way to get out and put the burden on the Iraqi military forces to pick up their effort. I think that has to be done to relieve the stress on our Army. It has to be done to refocus our efforts in areas that are just as critical -- Afghanistan and influence in Pakistan.

And I think also it is going to recognize that the issues that the Iraqi government are facing are fundamentally political. And this reconciliation, I hope they`re reconciling, but there is still 60,000 of these Sunni militia that are being paid by the United States, not paid by the government of Iraq.

There are, I think, also problems obviously with Sadr, with others who are the Mehdi army, with others. They`ll have to be reconciled by the Iraqi government. But the political effort has to be borne ultimately by the government of Iraq and the people of Iraq. And I think our strategy has to be along the lines of an outline by Senator Obama, Senator Clinton, and others.

CHARLIE ROSE: But General Keane says they are doing that.

JACK REED: Doing what, Charlie? I think that there are...

CHARLIE ROSE: Well, he says they`re engaged in political reconciliation. He says they`re increasing the amount of the burden that they want to bear. And that even....

JACK REED: I was over there in January. I was there when they passed the de-ba`athification law.

There`s a real question of whether that de-ba`athification law will be used to bring the Sunnis in, in a significant way, or as a way to just sort of pay them off, pension them off, get them out of the government key ministries. In fact, even Ambassador Crocker said the same thing. It`s all about implementation.

I think that the jury is really out on how sincere they are. And I think there`s a real question of whether the Shia community would be quite willing to share significantly power with the Sunnis.

That is an issue I think that is going to be tested in the days ahead. But we have not seen the progress, we have not seen the reconciliation yet that I think is significant. And we are seeing other problems that are political problems that are significant there -- the Shia-Shia conflict. We haven`t talked about Kirkuk in the north and the Kurdish claims to that area.

There are a host of issues that I think are going to be essentially at the doorstep of the Iraqi government in a political way, not strictly a military way. I think we can and we must begin a careful disengagement, and continue to do it consistently.

CHARLIE ROSE: General Keane, I hear Senator Reed differing with you on the question of the level of reconciliation.

JACK KEANE: Sure. Well, you know, a few months ago there was no legislative benchmarks passed. Now there are four significant legislative ones passed, and eight others that supply to security and also to governance. That`s significant.

Now the criticism is, well, it may not turn out right because implementation may not be what`s desired. Well, that`s true, but the hard thing has been done now.

I mean, they fought through the compromises that were so necessary to achieve those platforms. And that in and of itself is a commitment to do something, I would suggest. And yes, are we going to give them a scorecard for that? Certainly we are.

Listen, I disagree with this myth, I call it, that somehow by disengaging from the government of Iraq, they will do things that they are not capable of doing while we`re there. Anybody that has spent time with the Iraqi leaders knows for a fact -- I mean, truly spent time with them and talked to them on a very personal level, they know for a fact that the United States presence in Iraq, military and diplomatic presence, has been the glue that has brought this thing together. They admit that.

We have pushed them, cajoled them into doing things that they were not ready to do themselves. We pull out precipitously, they get insecure and paranoia about their historical past. I believe you run the risk of creating paralysis, as opposed to the so-called movement that you want.

We have helped them significantly because of our presence. And I believe at the end of the day, what we are really arguing about is how fast do we leave Iraq?

We all know we`re leaving. And what I would suggest we do based on the generals and the ambassador, who have finally turned the page to a successful chapter here in Iraq, they should provide the majority of the recommendations as to what that measured withdrawal should be. We`re going to leave. And we`re going to start leaving in the next couple of years.

CHARLIE ROSE: OK. Just let me hear you -- and Senator Sessions, jump in on this.

It is only -- the major question we face today is how long it takes us to leave. Did I hear the question right, General Keane?

JACK KEANE: Yes.

(CROSSTALK)

JACK KEANE: I think if you listen to what people are arguing over, that`s what we`re arguing over.

CHARLIE ROSE: Yes.

Senator Sessions, is that right?

SESSIONS: I fundamentally agree. I fundamentally agree. And I agree with General Keane.

I`ve gradually become convinced that the concept -- he called it a myth -- that if we just pull out our troops somehow, Iraq will solve all their difficult problems that they have politically, I don`t think that`s true. I think that had we pulled out too rapidly, it would have made it much worse and more difficult for them to solve their problems.

And that worked politically in the last election. I don`t think it will work this time.

CHARLIE ROSE: As far as you know, Senator Sessions -- and whether you heard it today or not, what are the differences between General Petraeus, Ambassador Crocker, and the Maliki government? Is there any light between them in terms of what -- not what they intend to do, but their overall sense of what`s necessary?

SESSIONS: Well, I don`t know that I can say. I would say that the military rightly is a little bit concerned that the other agencies of government -- agriculture, energy -- haven`t effectively carried their rule and fulfilled the -- you know, the PRT, the provincial reconstruction teams, or the justice system in the country. So the military has been achieving actually more effectively their goals than the other departments are.

But I think that General Petraeus emphasized the military tactical errors a bit in his testimony concerning the movement to Basra and taking on the Shia militia, whereas Ambassador Crocker noted that this did represent a political move by the people, the Shia leaders in Iraq against Shia militia, and that it was supported by the people. So they all have a little different perspective. And -- but fundamentally, I felt like they are pretty united in their view of the situation and what the challenge is for the future.

CHARLIE ROSE: Senator Reed, what should we be looking for next?

JACK REED: Well, I think what we should be looking for next is whether or not the Maliki government will follow up with their declared intention of suppressing at least the Shia militias, whether that will lead to an eruption of violence that could incite violence in other quarters. So, whether or not -- and what lessons the Sunnis take from that.

One lessons might be that, you know, now we have somehow who is evenhanded, who is going to go after the -- you know, the enemies of the state. The other lesson might be is that Maliki could be consolidating his power and then they could be next, which would create interesting dynamics. So, I think we have to -- so the next marker, if you will, is whether or not Maliki will follow up and would he declare his intention to suppress, completely suppress, these Shia militia.

CHARLIE ROSE: I thank you all.

What intrigues me most is, where is Ayatollah Sistani in all of this, and what does he want to see done, and what is he prepared to do, in a sense, to lean on Muqtada al-Sadr? So, that, and where are the Iranians, and what are they prepared to do in terms of their support of militia groups?

Having said that, I must go.

Thank you very much, Senator Reed, Senator Sessions and General Keane.

SESSIONS: Thank you.

JACK KEANE: Thank you.

CHARLIE ROSE: We`ll be back. Stay with us.

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