CNN News Transcript

CNN

SHOW: NEWS FROM CNN 12:00

HEADLINE: Turmoil in Haiti

GUESTS: Maxine Waters, Mark Foley

BYLINE: Wolf Blitzer

HIGHLIGHT:
Is the White House doing enough to stop what some warn could be a bloodbath in Haiti?

BODY:
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: So is the White House doing enough to stop what some warn could be a bloodbath in Haiti? Here to discuss that, two members of the United States Congress. Democratic Congresswoman Maxine Waters of California, sponsoring a resolution, calling for immediate U.S. assistance to Haiti. Also joining us, Republican Congressman Mark Foley of Florida, a state certainly on the front lines if there's an exodus of Haitian refugees.

Congressman, thanks very much for joining us.

Congresswoman Waters, first to you. You've been to Haiti several times in the last few weeks. What do you want specifically President Bush to do?

REP. MAXINE WATERS (D), CALIFORNIA: The Congressional Black Caucus met in an emergency meeting with President Bush, Condoleezza Rice and Secretary Powell yesterday. We laid out a very clear case for intervention.

We want the president to lead an effort. We don't care how it's configured. It can be all Americans, it can be an international force. But stop what is going to be a bloodbath unless we get in there.

The old military guys have come back from out of exile. They have American weapons, M-16s. They say they're coming into Port-au- Prince, they're going to kill the president. You have the local poor people who are arming themselves with machetes. When these two clash, a lot of lives are going to be lost.

BLITZER: So what was the response that the Congressional Black Caucus received from the president and his people?

WATERS: We're waiting for his answer. He asked us to please give him a little while to think about it. We impressed upon him, we don't have a lot of time.

It could happen any day now. The president, Aristide, has signed a peace agreement, he's agreed to share power. It is the opposition that's holding out that will not come to the table. They keep trying to get a political solution, but the opposition is thumbing its nose at the president of the United States.

BLITZER: Congressman Foley, what do you think about this?

REP. MARK FOLEY ®, FLORIDA: Well, the president has worked very diligently on this issue behind the scenes, trying to get the Canadians, the French, and others, Jamaicans, who are very intimately involved in the problems to solve some of the problems. One of the things these other nations have said, we will not send one person to Haiti unless Aristide goes.

The president is trying to bring some calm and balance. Deal with the terrorists, or what have you, the insurgents, get the president to put a timeline together for transfer of power to a prime minister. But we have to stabilize this. People's lives are being lost.

Yes, Florida's impacted. But we know in our hearts that the Haitian people most want to stay in their native country. They want some opportunity. So I think, first, we have to get stability. We're working on that. Secondly, we have to get some dialogue on how to rebuild the country.

BLITZER: Stability doesn't seem to be making so much progress right now. The rebels are moving on Port-au-Prince, probably even as we speak right now.

The last time this really erupted, Congressman Foley, 10 years ago, then President Clinton sent 20,000 U.S. troops to Haiti to restore power for President Aristide effectively, seven though he didn't immediately come back to the presidency. Is that the kind of policy that this administration should support, that kind of aggressive U.S. military involvement in Haiti?

FOLEY: We want to avoid being looked at as a saber rattler, the ones that are going to come to the rescue. We want people in that region to be part of the solution.

The United States in this particular instance wants to be part of any team that will go down there, whether it's 5,000, 10,000, or 20,000. Back in the Clinton administration is not the important barometer. It's whether we will have international cooperation.

It's interesting. Even the French want Aristide to go, and the French love everyone. So we know there's a fundamental problem here. We have to get this solved, and we're prepared to do what's necessary.

BLITZER: Why are you shaking your head?

WATERS: That is absolutely not true. CARICOM, that is the organization of all the Caribbean states, want to go in. They're trying to hang with Noriega, who is leading the whole team.

He's holding back France, he's holding back Canada, he's holding back the CARICOM states. They agreed that they would work together. They never knew they would reach this impasse, where the opposition would absolutely refuse to come to the table.

If the United States decides that it's going to say, you go, we don't have to be with you, they will go. If they said, we will be with you, we will accept that, too. We don't care how it's configured, but it is the United States that is the obstacle.

BLITZER: A lot of people say it's time for Aristide to step down.

WATERS: No. He is a democratically-elected president. And if they use this formula to oust him, all the nations of the Caribbean and these small countries would have to fear that the United States could work with people who don't like the president and they could continue to have these protests and bring in thugs and run people out of office. We don't want that.

BLITZER: Do you agree?

FOLEY: I don't agree. In fact, I think a lot of the Caribbean nations are adamantly opposed to Aristide continuing because they believe he's part of the problem. But the administration is trying to find a peaceful settlement to this by getting both sides to back down.

That may happen within the next 24 hours. We are hopeful that will happen. And all of us are looking at putting in a police force to help stabilize the Haitian national police.

There are a lot of contingency plans. But we do want the people to be talking to themselves, not being dictated to by the United States.

BLITZER: The official position of the State Department, the Bush administration, based on what I can tell, Congressman Waters, is that he was democratically elected, he is the president, he's got another two years left. But at the same time, if elect voluntarily under enormous pressure, no one would cry here in Washington.

WATERS: Well, it's a bad precedent. Some of us don't like the president of the United States. But we're not advocating overthrow, just as we shouldn't do that in the United States in a democracy, we shouldn't do it in a small country in a democracy.

We have to stand up for democratically-elected presidents in countries. And he's only got two years. They can elect whomever they want to in two years. They're afraid to let it go to elections in two years, because they think that he will win or his party will win again.

BLITZER: All right-Congressman.

FOLEY: Well, I just-you know, when people say they don't like the president of the United States, I take some umbrage to that. I liked Bill Clinton. I like George Bush.

I like Aristide. I've met him. But I don't think he's serving his people well.

And I think a lot of observers have recognized that the money that was intended for the people for humanitarian aid was used for fireworks and things for his own personal gain. There's corruption, there's drug trafficking, there's murders among his own Haitian national police. So unless we go in there and work on trying to stabilize-and again, President Bush has been willing to allow Aristide to stay so there is not crazy turmoil in this country.

WATERS: All we need is the president to help send some personnel there to stabilize Haiti. A lot of people are about to die. If they die, there will be blood on our hands. Because we can stop it; it's too easy. It doesn't take a lot.

Just get with the international community. Do it however you want to do it. But please, stop the carnage that's about to take place. Stop all of the talk about, we want a political solution.

Work on it after you stabilize Haiti and get those thugs out of there. Many of those people who are there were supporters of the old regime who were hired by the CIA. You know who they are, the president knows who they are. We want them out.

BLITZER: Congressman, quickly respond, then we need to take a quick break.

FOLEY: We want the bad people out, too. We want this nation, Haiti, to survive. We don't want bloodshed.

We do not want people drowning at sea. And the president was emphatic of not setting to the seas. The danger of 300 persons on a boat designed for 100 is dangerous. I think if we can get ourselves and work together we can solve Haiti's problem.

BLITZER: All right. Let's continue this conversation. We're going to have much more to talk about.

We're going to take a quick break. When we come back, more with Congresswoman Maxine Waters and Congressman Mark Foley right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: It's a subject of great importance to the United States. Haiti, we're covering that right now with two members of the United States Congress, Maxine Waters and Mark Foley.

Let's talk a little bit about some of the responses we're getting, Congresswoman. This from Jo Jo (ph). "The United States needs to take the lead in accepting that if the majority of the citizens of Haiti do not want Aristide, who has done nothing to recover the economy of Haiti; a new election is needed."

What's wrong with just simply calling for new elections right now?

WATERS: He was elected to serve a five-year term. It ends in '06. He will stay until that time.

He's opposed to limiting his term in office. And it's not the majority of the citizens who don't want him. He actually has the support of the majority of citizens of Haiti. And they will see that if this confrontation takes place.

So he's not willing to step down; he's not willing to give up his term of office. He was democratically elected, and he wants to remain there until this term is over.

BLITZER: Do you support the different standard for Haitians and for Cubans who manage to reach Florida's shores, Congressman Foley?

FOLEY: Only based on their claims. Some are claiming economic, which is not a claim. Others are concerned about persecution.

BLITZER: Explain to our viewers the difference in policy, in law, that is. If a Cuban manages to touch United States shore in Florida, that person gets to stay. If a Haitian gets to shore on a boat, he can be sent back?

FOLEY: Correct. They have to claim political asylum, and then they would be entitled to stay.

BLITZER: Now, critics say there's a double standard that's unfair. Do you believe that?

FOLEY: I'm not sure it's unfair. I mean, we have a communist nation down to the south of us. We have a democratically-elected president, as Maxine Waters says. There's a big difference on who is leading the country. The fear of getting killed if you return to Cuba after having escaped is very real. the likelihood of being killed going back to Haiti is not so great.

BLITZER: Do you agree?

WATERS: That's not a credible argument. As a matter of fact, I was absolutely stunned when the president of the United States got on television yesterday and said to the Haitians, don't come to the United States. Don't show up in Florida. We're going to turn you back in the waters. Yet we know the violence is going on.

BLITZER: But isn't it going to save lives of potential Haitians getting on these rafts? They could die...

WATERS: I don't think the worry is about saving lives. I think the worry is about having these Haitians show up on the banks of Florida. That's what the worry is about.

This is not about, we want to make sure you don't drown. This is about, we don't want you in Florida. That's what it's all about.

FOLEY: I disagree. The president has interdicted Cubans as well and sent them back to Cuba. He has stopped them from reaching Florida shores.

He's been very adamant that you are not going to come to this country by virtue of boat and be allowed to stay. Either Cubans or-and it's caused him political problems in Miami. But he believes the policy should be consistent.

BLITZER: I'll give you the last word very quickly.

WATERS: Well, the fact of the matter is, when Cubans land and put their foot on ground in Florida, they can stay. Haitians cannot do it.

It is a double standard. It is discrimination. And it doesn't sound right now with all this turmoil going on in Haiti that the president would send that message to Haitians, we don't care what's happening, don't come here.

BLITZER: All right. We have to leave it here. But we'll continue this conversation on another occasion.

WATERS: Thank you.

BLITZER: Thanks to both of you for joining us.

FOLEY: Thanks, Wolf.

BLITZER: Good luck to both of you. Good luck to all the people of Haiti as well.