Hearing of the Senate Armed Services Committee - Contingency Reserve Fund Request for FY05

Federal News Service

HEADLINE: HEARING OF THE SENATE ARMED SERVICES COMMITTEE

SUBJECT: CONTINGENCY RESERVE FUND REQUEST FOR FY05

CHAIRED BY: SENATOR JOHN WARNER (R-VA)

WITNESSES: DEPUTY SECRETARY OF DEFENSE PAUL WOLFOWITZ; GENERAL PETER PACE, VICE CHAIRMAN, JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF; JOEL KAPLAN, DEPUTY DIRECTOR, OFFICE OF MANAGEMENT AND BUDGET

LOCATION: 216 HART SENATE OFFICE BUILDING, WASHINGTON, D.C.

BODY:
SEN. JACK REED (D-RI): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I understand that your original guidance has been withdrawn, so I will --

SEN. WARNER: The senator is correct, for reasons which I stated that --

SEN. REED: So I will pose the following question. General Pace, if you were shown a video of a United States Marine or an American citizen in the control of a foreign power, in a cell block, naked, with a bag over their head, squatting with their arms uplifted for 45 minutes, would you describe that as a good interrogation technique or a violation of the Geneva Convention?

GEN. PACE: I would describe it as a violation, sir.

SEN. REED: As I read General Sanchez's guidance-well, let me ask another question. Would your conclusion be different if it was ordered by a high-ranking officer of that foreign power?

GEN. PACE: No, sir.

SEN. REED: As I read General Sanchez's guidance, precisely that behavior could have been employed in Iraq.

Let me ask, since you said in respect to this supplemental appropriation, your responsibility-and I respect it-is to absorb all the details and all the data from the theater of operations and make recommendations and decisions. Did the Joint Staff review General Sanchez's recommendations, his interrogation rules?

GEN. PACE: Sir, I'm not aware-what recommendations? I'm sorry, sir.

SEN. REED: Well, the rules that we were shown, by General Alexander and others, which would allow, with his permission, to keep someone in a squatting position and presumably naked, with their arms up, for 45 minutes. Did you review any of those rules or standard operating procedures which General Sanchez approved?

GEN. PACE: Sir, I did not personally see them, and I do not know to what level they were visible or reviewed.

SEN. REED: Well --

SEN. WARNER: Senator, that's an important question. I think the witness should be given a full opportunity to answer that promptly for the record, because-and I think we should also provide him with the document that was utilized by this committee and the Intelligence Committee yesterday, to which you refer.

SEN. REED: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I concur.

Were there any discussions of these interrogation techniques by the general staff-by the Joint Staff, since General Sanchez is commanding a joint operation?

GEN. PACE: Senator, the only discussions of which I am aware with regard to interrogation techniques and procedures had to do with our operations in Guantanamo. I am not personally aware of any discussions beyond the theater of the interrogation techniques in Iraq.

SEN. REED: Mr. Secretary, are you aware of any discussions about these interrogation techniques in General Sanchez's order?

MR. WOLFOWITZ: I'm not aware. No. I am aware of discussions about Guantanamo, and I can tell you that what I'm aware of, those certainly would not have been remotely permitted in Guantanamo.

SEN. REED: I've just heard General Pace say that the behavior that General Sanchez authorized, subject to his order, is a violation of the Geneva Convention. And that was unvetted by the senior members, civilian members of the Department of Defense. No discussion, no suggestion to General Sanchez that he would-could pursue this either in writing or verbally?

MR. WOLFOWITZ: Senator Reed, as I said earlier, there's an enormous amount of detail involved in this investigation. You're talking about things that General Pace and I have not seen, and I don't think are in a position fairly to comment upon. We will answer you for the record. You've heard hours of testimony, and-including closed testimony, from people who are digging into this subject in great detail, in great depth at the secretary's instruction. His instruction to the two of us is to make sure that while that work is going on, that the other business of the department is being attended to. And Mr. Chairman, I'll be happy to understand for the record what this question refers to and give you a clear and honest answer, and I know General Pace will also.

SEN. REED: Well, Mr. Secretary, we've heard hours of responses. But until General Pace's response, I haven't heard anything as candid and as forthright, frankly. And what I've heard from you is dissembling and avoidance of answers, lack of knowledge, pleading process-legal process --

MR. WOLFOWITZ: I'm not dissembling, Senator Reed. I have General Pace's same reaction. What you described to me sounds to me like a violation of the Geneva Convention. It's the first time I've heard that it was in General Sanchez's direction, and I believe it's the first time that General Pace has heard that it was General Sanchez's direction. And all I know is that you're saying --

SEN. REED: Well, I would suggest, Mr. Secretary, that you're not doing your job, then. This was a-these were the orders issued to a joint intelligence operation in that prison, presented to us in a hearing yesterday by a representative of the Department of Defense as the standard procedures that could be followed.

MR. WOLFOWITZ: Senator Reed, when we first --

SEN. WARNER: Senator, let me interrupt, just if I may. In preparing for this hearing, I talked at length with the deputy, expressing the absolutely essential need that he and the vice chairman come up today. And he told me very candidly that, for the past week or so, he has had to focus on the daily operations of the department and such questions that might be put to him regarding the prisoner situation in Iraq.

He said, "Senator Warner, I simply haven't had the opportunity to keep the pace of all the work that the secretary of Defense and the chairman are doing on this question."

So I'd like to say in fairness to our two witnesses today, to me they were very forthcoming about their working on these budget issues at the same time the secretary's working on the other issues, and they may not be able fully to respond to questions of today, and I think he's honestly said that.

SEN. LEVIN: Mr. Chairman?

SEN. REED: Mr. Chairman, I respect immensely your leadership of this committee, and I will --

SEN. WARNER: Well, let's just let the senator finish. Thank you.

SEN. REED: I will --

SEN. LEVIN: I wonder if Senator Reed would just yield on this issue just for one minute --

SEN. REED: I would yield.

BREAK IN TRANSCRIPT
SEN. LEVIN: Well, I know. I'm just asking-I want to make sure. And I'll go back. Because it seems to me this is-this dramatizes the failure of leadership here, and it goes a lot more than just, as Senator Nelson said, the six enlisted personnel. Those are rules of engagement for confronting detainees, using the very term which is not supposed to be used against detainees?

Secretary Wolfowitz, you're not familiar with that document at all?

MR. WOLFOWITZ: I saw this document for the first time this morning. The-it seems to me, but I don't know, and this is why I'm very reluctant to start commenting, that what Senator Reed described is something that goes quite beyond what is permitted here even --

SEN. LEVIN: No, no. Look at the dots, right, those two dots: stress, up to 45 minutes. That's what --

MR. WOLFOWITZ: No, Senator Reed described something that went quite a lot beyond just stress positions.

SEN. LEVIN: (Chuckles.) Okay. I'm sorry. Senator Reed --

SEN. REED: Well, that's a different --

MR. WOLFOWITZ: And let me say, it says here, "Detainees will never be touched in a malicious or unwanted manner. Approaches must always be humane and lawful." I don't think that what Senator Reed described is either humane or lawful.

SEN. REED: Mr. Secretary, do you think crouching naked for 45 minutes is humane?

MR. WOLFOWITZ: Not naked, absolutely not.

SEN. REED: So if he's dressed up, that's fine? But this also has other environmental manipulation. Let me put it this way -- 72 hours without regular sleep. Sensory deprivation, which would be a bag over your head for 72 hours. Do you think that's humane? And that's what this says, a bag over your head for 72 hours, is that humane?

MR. WOLFOWITZ: Let me come back to what you said, the work of this government --

SEN. REED: No, no. Answer the question, Mr. Secretary. Is that humane?

MR. WOLFOWITZ: I don't know whether it means a bag over your head for 72 hours, Senator. I don't know.

SEN. REED: Mr. Secretary, you're dissembling, non-responsive. Anybody would say putting a bag over someone's head for 72 hours, which is --

MR. WOLFOWITZ: I believe it's not humane.

SEN. REED: -- sensory deprivation --

MR. WOLFOWITZ: It strikes me as not humane, Senator.

SEN. REED: Thank you very much, Mr. Secretary.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.