Hearing of the Senate Armed Services - Allegations of Mistreatment of Iraqi Prisoners

Federal News Service

HEADLINE: HEARING OF THE SENATE ARMED SERVICES COMMITTEE

SUBJECT: ALLEGATIONS OF MISTREATMENT OF IRAQI PRISONERS

CHAIRED BY: SENATOR JOHN WARNER (R-VA)

WITNESSES: CENTCOM COMMANDER GENERAL JOHN ABIZAID; LIEUTENANT GENERAL RICARDO SANCHEZ, COMMANDER, MULTINATIONAL FORCE, IRAQ; MAJOR GENERAL GEOFFREY MILLER, DEPUTY COMMANDER FOR DETAINEE OPERATIONS, MULTINATIONAL FORCE, IRAQ

LOCATION: 216 HART SENATE OFFICE BUILDING, WASHINGTON, D.C.

BODY:
SEN. COLLINS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. First, let me begin by thanking all of you for your extraordinary service. One of the tragedies of this abuse scandal is that it not only obscures the fine work that you're doing, but it also overwhelms the thousands of acts of kindness, courage and compassion by our troops every day in Iraq. And that's why this abuse scandal is particularly upsetting. I feel it sets back and undermines the good work of our troops, the vast majority of our troops.

I have to say that after reading the Taguba Report, reviewing the various interviews and participating in these hearings, I remain unclear about the answers to some very basic and critical questions-questions such as who really was in charge of the prison, and what was allowed in the treatment of the prisoners. General Sanchez, at the committee's hearing last week, General Alexander referred to these guidelines, the interrogation rules of engagement, as yours. Numerous press reports have referred to these rules as the Sanchez guidelines. But is it your testimony this morning that these guidelines were not issued by your office, and that in fact you only saw them last week at our hearings?

GEN. SANCHEZ: Ma'am, absolutely not. The first time I saw the slide that was specifically shown to me by one of the senators is what I was referring to. I personally issued the memorandums, and I have both memorandums sitting here that I will provide to the committee. Those rules of engagement were my rules of engagement, and I personally approved those after I consulted with my higher headquarters and my staff judge advocate.

SEN. COLLINS: In response to a question from Senator Reed, you said, however, that you had never approved the presence of dogs, sleep deprivation, stress positions, however, that are listed on these guidelines. Is that correct?

GEN. SANCHEZ: Ma'am, that is exactly right.

SEN. COLLINS: General Sanchez, I also want to follow up on your November order putting military intelligence in charge of some aspects of the prison. I also want to explore with you the role of military intelligence in general. In the Taguba Report, the general says that the recommendations of General Miller's team that the guard force be actively engaged in setting the conditions for the successful exploitation of the detainees would appear to be in conflict with the recommendations of General Ryder's team and AR-190-A that military police do not participate in military intelligence-supervised interrogation sessions. He also says that having military police actively set the favorable conditions for interviews runs counter to the smooth operation of the detention facility. Didn't your order, where you involved the military police in some aspects of the supervision of the prison, run counter to the regulations cited by General Taguba?

GEN. ABIZAID: Senator Collins, may I take this?

SEN. COLLINS: Yes, general.

GEN. ABIZAID: First of all, we do not have all the facts, and I think it's important for the committee to understand that. We need to see what we're going to hear from the 205th MI Brigade-what was in the mind of that commander, what did he think-so if we can set that aside, let me share with you one of the findings that came out of the Department of the Army IG's investigations that are preliminary-they're not approved-I'm sure they'll be shared with this committee. Our doctrine is not right. It's just not right. I mean, there are so many things that are out there that aren't right in the way that we operate for this war. This is a doctrinal problem of understanding where you bring, what do the MPs do, what do the military intelligence guys do, how do they come together in the right way. And this doctrinal issue has got to be fixed if we're ever going to get our intelligence right to fight this war and beat this enemy. So we've got problems that have to be looked at from top to bottom in order to ensure that there is no confusion. Because you see the Ryder Report says one thing, the Taguba Report will say one thing --

SEN. COLLINS: Exactly my point.

GEN. ABIZAID: You're going to see that the Fay Report says something else. And it's not because anybody's lying to anybody. It's because the system is not right. And there are a lot of systems that are wrong out there that we better fix if we're going to beat this enemy.

SEN. COLLINS: But, general, I guess what concerns me is that when you have all these contradictory doctrines, or all these contradictory findings-it suggests to me that there was great confusion at the prison. And that confusion can set the stage for the kinds of unacceptable abuses that occurred. That's my concern.

GEN. ABIZAID: It is a concern that I share, senator, and we will find out the facts. But I would like to ensure that you understand that there is great confusion in a combat zone-all the time-almost as much as there is here in Washington, but not quite.

SEN. COLLINS: Thank you, general.