Panel II of a Hearing of the Senate Armed Services Committee - Allegations of Mistreatment of Iraqi Prisoners

Federal News Service

HEADLINE: PANEL II OF A HEARING OF THE SENATE ARMED SERVICES COMMITTEE

SUBJECT: ALLEGATIONS OF MISTREATMENT OF IRAQI PRISONERS

CHAIRED BY: SENATOR JOHN WARNER (R-VA)

WITNESSES: LIEUTENANT GENERAL KEITH B. ALEXANDER, U.S. ARMY DEPUTY CHIEF OF STAFF; MAJOR GENERAL RONALD L. BURGESS, JR., U.S. ARMY, DIRECTOR FOR INTELLIGENCE, THE JOINT STAFF; MAJOR GENERAL THOMAS J. ROMIG, U.S. ARMY, JUDGE ADVOCATE GENERAL

LOCATION: 106 DIRKSEN SENATE OFFICE BUILDING, WASHINGTON, D.C.

BODY:
SEN. JACK REED (d-RI): Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

General Alexander, when was General Fay appointed to conduct his investigation?

GEN. ALEXANDER: Sir, the 7th of April is my understanding of the date that he was appointed. And I think that was the day after the 15-6 investigation was signed off.

SEN. REED: Now, General Sanchez received the report from the International Committee of the Red Cross in February. Is that correct?

GEN. ALEXANDER: Sir, General Sanchez's headquarters received it. I don't know when General Sanchez got it.

SEN. REED: But his headquarters received it in February. Within this report there are allegations, or actually statements by the inspectors, in particularly witness to practices of keeping persons deprived of their liberty, completely naked in totally empty concrete cells and in total darkness, allegedly for several consecutive days. First, that's a violation of the commander's guidance.

GEN. ALEXANDER: Yes, sir.

SEN. REED: That's a violation of the Geneva Convention.

GEN. ALEXANDER: Exactly, sir.

SEN. REED: So this report is received in February.

GEN. ALEXANDER: Yes, sir.

SEN. REED: And in this particular incidence, the explanation for this behavior was because a military intelligence officer said it was part of the process.

GEN. ALEXANDER: Yes, sir.

SEN. REED: From February to April --

GEN. ALEXANDER: No, sir. Let me-if I might, sir?

SEN. REED: Go ahead, General.

GEN. ALEXANDER: And we touched on this briefly before. In the identification of who is a military intelligence officer --

SEN. REED: No, General, the-just-if you'll excuse me --

GEN. ALEXANDER: Yes, sir.

SEN. REED: -- the sequence is that the report's received by headquarters in February.

GEN. ALEXANDER: That's correct. At that time --

SEN. REED: That's correct. Containing this information-which would raise, I think, serious concerns about policy, about practice, about compliance with the Geneva Convention in the intelligence operation regardless of who the individual is. And it takes to April 4th to appoint an investigating officer?

GEN. ALEXANDER: Well, sir, there is an ongoing investigation at that time, which is the Taguba investigation on that facility.

SEN. REED: And General Taguba testified earlier today that he was-because of his mission he was not required to, nor was he encouraged to, investigate the military intelligence aspect. Is that correct?

GEN. ALEXANDER: That's correct. And when that was brought out, as soon as that was brought out and made public, to the best of my knowledge-you see, I did not receive a copy of the International Committee of the Red Cross report until this week.

SEN. REED: Now, I understand, from your testimony, that General Karpinski received the report even before General Sanchez.

GEN. ALEXANDER: She-that is correct, sir.

SEN. REED: And she didn't --

GEN. ALEXANDER: My understanding is, she got an out-brief in November of that report, and she responded on the 24th of December with actions.

SEN. REED: And she did not inform General Sanchez or his headquarters of these allegations, which violated his policy and which violated the Geneva Convention?

GEN. ALEXANDER: I do not know who-I understand, but I do not know who, other than-the judge advocate general, it is my understanding, is the only person who had information at the CJTF-7. But sir, I will have to take that for the record, to give you the exact answer. I do not know.

And the other part that we answered on that was, we do not know if General Karpinski started an investigation based on the incidents that were in those reports, because, as you point out, they're illegal.

SEN. REED: General Burgess, the Theater Joint Interrogation and Debriefing Center-that is a joint asset; that's not an Army asset. Is that correct?

GEN. BURGESS: Yeah, sir, it is a joint --

SEN. REED: It's a joint asset.

Colonel Norton (sic) is an Army officer? The commander of that-former commander, Colonel Steve Norton (sic; probably means Steve Jordan).

GEN. BURGESS: Sir, I'm not sure if he is an Army officer or not.

SEN. REED: Do you know anything about his background, where he served before?

GEN. BURGESS: No, sir, I do not.

SEN. REED: Were you involved with the-General Miller's trip, in terms of being briefed about it or being involved in his trip in August, in which talked about a different regime, if you will, in that prison?

GEN. BURGESS: Yes, sir, I was.

SEN. REED: Are you aware of the recommendations that he made, including that the military police should be preparing prisoners for interrogation?

GEN. BURGESS: Sir, when he did his report, that was provided to the theater, and it was not provided to the Joint Staff. However, I did talk to General Miller and subsequently received a copy of that report.

SEN. REED: So you were aware of the fact that he was recommending something which General Taguba had recognized as being at least, if carried to-out, would be violating Army regulations and maybe even implicating the Geneva Convention?

GEN. BURGESS: Sir, I was aware, as I looked at what General Miller said in-and I have read his report, and I have looked at slides that accompany that. I interpreted what General Miller had said in a different manner, I would think, than maybe General Taguba may have, and that probably came from my working with him down at Guantanamo.

SEN. REED: Did Secretary Cambone's office receive the same briefing, to your knowledge?

GEN. BURGESS: Sir, I do not know if Secretary Cambone received it or not.

SEN. REED: Who else, to your knowledge, received a briefing from General Miller about his recommendations or saw the report or slides?

GEN. BURGESS: Sir, as far as I know, I can only confirm that General Miller's report was provided to Lieutenant General Sanchez. If it was provided higher, I am not certain. I have slides that were prepared for the Department of Defense, but I have not been able to confirm that they were ever presented.

SEN. REED: The rules that you handed out, General Alexander, were they changed in any respect with respect to the Miller --

GEN. ALEXANDER: No, sir. Those rules, as I stated, stem from our field manual on interrogation operations. And so when you look at that, that manual was written in 1984 and it's consistent. I mean, so it's one that we have for --

SEN. REED: General Miller recommended the establishment of the theater Joint Interrogation and Debriefing Center in his report, is that correct?

GEN. BURGESS: Yes, sir. He did comment on that.

SEN. REED: And General Sanchez approved that?

GEN. BURGESS: Sir, I would assume General Sanchez approved that because they in fact formed a JIDC.

SEN. REED: Can you also assume that General Sanchez approved his recommendation with respect to using military police to prepare the prisoners for interrogation?

GEN. BURGESS: No, sir. I can't. I cannot assume that because I have not seen any authorities or promulgation put from General Sanchez following the release of the Miller report to him.

GEN. ALEXANDER: Sir, may I --

SEN. REED: General Alexander?

GEN. ALEXANDER: -- may I shed some light on that because I think it's taken out of context. I know what it says, but I honestly believe that that is taken out of context.

I have talked to General Miller on what he meant. I have read our doctrine from both the military police and the intel side. The part about where military police and intelligence have to work together for screening and for understanding the mind-set of the prisoner before he's interrogated is something that we do have to closely work on and is something that was broken.

SEN. REED: Mr. Chairman, may I ask one follow-up question?

SEN. WARNER: Yes. If I may say, you've got a very important line of questioning, and you take another minute.

SEN. REED: General Alexander or General Romig, is anywhere within the Miller report or the slides clearly stated that the situation in Iraq is different than Guantanamo, that the Geneva Convention applies in Guantanamo? And I ask this because the interpretation of what is meant by preparing prisoners in the Guantanamo environment has a much different legal and practical connotation. In the Iraq environment, it has a much, much different connotation. It appears that the Guantanamo connotation found itself in Iraq, as prisoners were being called in this report subject to violations at the commander's guidance and also the Geneva Convention. Is-you seen anything where it was emphasized, the fact that these were two separate situations? And, General Romig, I think you concur with my analysis.

GEN. ROMIG: Yes, sir. They are two separate situations. But I did not see the slides on that, so I don't know.

SEN. REED: General Alexander, General Burgess, anything?

GEN. ALEXANDER: Sir, I have seen the slides, and again I have been in Guantanamo, and I have talked to General Miller after his visit to Iraq. Clearly, before going to Iraq his concern was they had enough people, Iraq was getting all the interrogators, they don't need the help.

He went over there and he saw some of the conditions in the camp that was prior to Abu Ghraib, and he helped fix that. That was the old Camp Cropper. So one of the things that he did in his time there was, for General Sanchez, look at what needed to be fixed in other camps. The humane treatment-and the facilities that we have at Guantanamo are an order of magnitude better than the facilities that we have in Iraq. He understood that right away.

And sir, he also understood that the ability to integrate intelligence into interrogations and what he called the flow of information that he had at Guantanamo does not exist in Iraq because the system was not there to support it. All of those needed to be fixed, and those were the key things that he was talking about.

Nowhere-and he added a line in his report, to have the Legal review our recommendations to make sure what we're saying is correct. But sir, I believe that what he said was honestly correct, and I believe that there was no intent to, as it is taken, to, quote, "soften up" prisoners for interrogation. And I know it says it, you know, and people are quoting those, but I have talked to General Miller, and I will tell you I honestly believe that he did not say it in those manners.

SEN. REED: Just a final question.

SEN. WARNER: No, Senator, we really --

SEN. REED: I understand, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.