Panel II of a Hearing of the Armed Services Committee - Allegations of Mistreatment of Iraqi Prisoners

Federal News Service

HEADLINE: PANEL II OF A HEARING OF THE SENATE ARMED SERVICES COMMITTEE

SUBJECT: ALLEGATIONS OF MISTREATMENT OF IRAQI PRISONERS

CHAIRED BY: SENATOR JOHN WARNER (R-VA)

WITNESSES: LIEUTENANT GENERAL KEITH B. ALEXANDER, U.S. ARMY DEPUTY CHIEF OF STAFF; MAJOR GENERAL RONALD L. BURGESS, JR., U.S. ARMY, DIRECTOR FOR INTELLIGENCE, THE JOINT STAFF; MAJOR GENERAL THOMAS J. ROMIG, U.S. ARMY, JUDGE ADVOCATE GENERAL

LOCATION: 106 DIRKSEN SENATE OFFICE BUILDING, WASHINGTON, D.C.

BODY:
SEN. SUSAN COLLINS (R-ME): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

General Alexander and General Burgess, the February 2004 report of the Red Cross states that there was a particular category of prisoners that were particularly at risk for abuse. And I want to quote to you from the report.

It says that persons deprived of their liberty under the supervision of the military intelligence were at high risk of being subjected to a variety of harsh treatments, ranging from insults, threats and humiliations to both physical and psychological coercion-which in some cases was tantamount to torture-in order to force cooperation. That's pretty strong language talking about prisoners who are under the control of military intelligence being at particularly high risk.

General Alexander, you've said that this report only came to your attention, I think you said, last week or relatively recently. General Burgess, when did you learn of the Red Cross's report?

I'm talking about the February report.

GEN. BURGESS: Yes, ma'am. Just last week.

SEN. COLLINS: Shouldn't this report, with its indictment of certain military intelligence been brought to your attention sooner than that? Who should have brought this to your attention, General Alexander?

GEN. ALEXANDER: Well, ma'am, clearly it should be brought to the attention of the commander responsible for that theater so he could take action on it.

My understanding is that the initial report did go to General Karpinski and that she was asked to respond to that report, and did so on the 24th of December. I do not know if she in fact started an investigation into those, because they are serious. And I agree with you that as soon, as soon as we hear about one of those allegations, an investigation should begin right away and we shouldn't wait for it.

SEN. COLLINS: I want to bring up a second issue and have all three of you comment. If a small group of guards on their own initiative decided to abuse their prisoners, I am very skeptical that they would have chosen bizarre sexual humiliations that were specifically designed to be particularly offensive to Muslim men. It seems to me that it is far more likely that a group of out-of-control, undisciplined guards would beat up prisoners, not strip them naked and put them in a human pyramid. That really troubles me because it just doesn't-it implies too much knowledge of what would be particularly humiliating to these Muslim prisoners.

And that is why even though I do not yet have the evidence, I cannot help but suspect that others were involved; that military intelligence personnel were involved, or people further up the chain of command, in suggesting to these prisoners-I mean in suggesting to these guards specific types of abuse that were designed to break these prisoners.

I'd like to ask each of you to comment on that, starting with General Alexander.

GEN. ALEXANDER: Well, ma'am, your logic is correct. I think that the difficult part is to find out who told whom what to do. As you state, the soldiers that are charged are saying that Military Intelligence told me to do this.

Now the question is, who? We can't-the defense can't be that I was told to do it by that group or that group. Who told you? That's really where we need to get to. Who told them to do this? And who was that individual? That is the key to all of this.

Now, as you know, in the the General Taguba report there were three soldiers, not interrogators, that are intel analysts, that were listed, and there were two contractors listed. And it appears that at least one of the contractors did tell some of them some of this, but it's not clear what they said. What complicates that, as I understand it, is some of these soldiers, now that are charged, have plead the Fifth, and are not talking to the investigators to give out the rest of what they know.

So we want to get exactly the facts that you get, that you're stating, because that is important to us. To fix the system we got to know who. We got to know what they did and why they did it, and then we've got to take action, hold them accountable and fix it so that it doesn't happen again. So I agree with the way that you've put that out.

SEN. COLLINS: General Burgess.

GEN. BURGESS: Ma'am, what you've laid out is logical. What I would say is I've learned doing intelligence work that you close no doors. You see where the threads, as I call them, will take you.

But the last point I'd leave you with-in my short 30 years in the military, I'm not surprised much anymore what one person will do to another person-just dealing with things that I've had to deal with through my career, just dealing with the situations that come up. So anything is possible. I'm not condoning, not saying it's right. It's just human nature in some cases.

SEN. COLLINS: General.

GEN. ROMIG: Senator, since we have an ongoing CID investigation and pending cases, it would be inappropriate for me to comment.

SEN. COLLINS: I thought you would answer that way. (Chuckles.)

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.