MSNBC Hardball - Transcript

MSNBC

SHOW: HARDBALL 19:00

BYLINE: Chris Matthews; David Shuster

GUESTS: Mark Dayton; John Cornyn; Joseph Califano; Walter Shapiro; Donna Dees-Thomases

HIGHLIGHT:
The response to Donald Rumsfeld's congressional testimony is split on party lines, with some key questions still unanswered. Accused soldier's friends and family speak out in her defense.

BODY:
MATTHEWS: Well, he sure was tough. Anyway, thank you. NBC's Chip Reid at the capital.

Right now, I'm joined by two members of the Senate Armed Services Committee, who questioned Secretary Rumsfeld today.

Senator Mark Dayton is a Democrat from Minnesota and Senator John Cornyn is a Republican from the state of Texas.

Let me go to right now to do you think he will resign, Senator Dayton?

SEN. MARK DAYTON (D), MINNESOTA: I don't think so. I think that's a decision for the president to make. He's the commander in achievement. It ought to be his decision. But he's the one who ought to be held accountable.

MATTHEWS: What about the term effectiveness? What does that mean to you when the secretary of defense says, "The question is whether I can still be effective." Well, the military are still going to take orders from the guy. He's still a smart guy.

Is the question different than that? Is it about diplomacy at this point?

DAYTON: I think it's about giving president of the United States the discretion whether or not to continue him or not to best serve the president. I think he's a very honorable man in that respect.

But the real issue here is what are we going to do next? That was a question I asked at the end that wasn't answered. Are we going to increase the troop strength? Increase the occupation? Isn't that going to just cause more escalation of violence, hatred toward the United States? That's the track they're on.

The president's the one who's got to make that decision, explain to the American people what are we going to do from this point forward that's going to make the situation better, rather than worse?

MATTHEWS: Let me go to Senator Jack Cornyn of Texas. What's your view of the whole day, the whole issue here, of Rumsfeld, the president and the embarrassing pictures?

SEN. JOHN CORNYN ®, TEXAS: Well, it's very troubling to see American troops-a handful of American troop reflect so badly on all of us and the American government in general and damage our credibility in Iraq.

I thought Rumsfeld handled himself pretty well today, under difficult circumstances.

He has to balance his obligation to protect the integrity of the investigation and to make sure that a meaningful prosecution against those who did wrong is done successful. And balance the insatiable appetite for Congress and the press to know every grisly detail along the way.

MATTHEWS: Well, let me ask you about policy, Senator. We're fighting a counterinsurgency war. It's an occupation. We can argue it's a good occupation, but it's an occupation which requires that you have to put down insurgencies, which means you have to get information from the insurgents or else you're just going to get blown away.

Don't we have to be very tough, even cruel with the people we pick up as insurgents if we're going to break the story for ourselves to protect our troops about where the explosive devices are being planted?

Who is doing that stuff? Don't we have to be tough?

CORNYN: Well, we have to be tough, but we have to do it consistent with American values and with international conventions like the Geneva Convention. I think we can do that.

And-But the American people are not going to tolerate abusing prisoners in order to get the last ounce of information out of some of these people. And I think the revulsion you see here is pretty clear.

MATTHEWS: Do you think that those people, who have been all pointed to in these pictures, the people from Cumberland, Maryland, do you think that they thought up these methods like banding these guys together in bundles and all these things we are watching in these pictures?

Do you think they imagined that kind of misuse of the prisoners, or that reflects what they were guided to do as part of the softening up process for the interrogators?

CORNYN: I don't think this reflects policy. I think it reflects a lack of training, a lack of discipline, a lack of immediate leadership in directing these people how to do their job.

This was a handful of American troops run amok and not acting pursuant to any policy that we heard about.

MATTHEWS: So you believe it was their own imaginations that led them to embarrass these people in this fashion?

CORNYN: So far. Of course, what we are concerned about, all concerned about, is additional pictures, photographs, and information that may come out. But so far, it looks like they were acting on their own.

MATTHEWS: Senator Dayton, do you accept the bad apples theory?

DAYTON: These are very bad apples.

MATTHEWS: Would you accept the idea that they thought up all this stuff?

DAYTON: I don't know who suggested it and why it was condoned or why it continued. The facts are that they're in the conduct of a war. It's not going to go perfectly.

And what we need to face up to now is the fact that we are hated in the Arab world. We have Iraqi forces intensifying their attacks against us. Our troops are over there now, serving courageously. They're going to be increasingly suffering casualties and deaths. What are we going to do about that?

The administration says now they're going to increase the number of troops. They're going to increase the military force there. They're going to try to, what, subjugate the entire population?

MATTHEWS: Is that a good plan?

DAYTON: I think they need to answer. I don't think so. I think we've got to put Iraqi forces, the ones that have been over there, 200,000 that are equipped and trained. They need to be responsible.

And you should set a deadline, say, in three or four months. We're going to put them on the front lines. We're going to withdraw. We're going to cut our forces in half or so. We're going to take a defensive posture so that Iran or someone else can't come in and take over the country. But Iraq's got to become responsible for Iraq.

MATTHEWS: So the policing of that country should be Iraqi?

DAYTON: It should be increasingly Iraqi. And soon. And should not end in 2006, as the president plans to go for.

MATTHEWS: What do you think, Senator Cornyn? Should the Iraqis take over the street protection and leave our guys in the barracks?

CORNYN: Well, we-that would be ideal. But they're not trained for that yet. And it's clear that in Fallujah and other places where they simply did not stand up and do the job they were trained to do, that they need some more training. They need the assurance that America will not cut and run.

Because, of course, the Iraqis have learned the hard way. Some have died as a result of rising up to fight someone like Saddam, only to find that the Americans and the United Nations have left, left them to their own devices.

MATTHEWS: Doesn't an occupation...

DAYTON: In fact, in Fallujah right now, according to reports, this is being tried. General Conway, the United States Marine commander there is trying this. This has got to be accelerated.

We've got to tell them they're responsible. Give them a few months. Get them trained. Tell them they're responsible for their country.

MATTHEWS: OK. We're going to come back and talk with the two senators about how we get out of this mess. Senator Dayton and Senator Cornyn.

And later, the family of accused prisoner guard Lynddie England goes on the defensive.

And later, Washington insider Joseph Califano will find out whether heads will roll in the Bush administration.

You're watching HARDBALL on MSNBC.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MATTHEWS: Coming up, much more with Senator Mark Dayton and Senator John Cornyn on Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld's testimony today on Capitol Hill. HARDBALL, back in a minute.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. EVAN BAYH (D), INDIANA: But in your opinion, even though you weren't personally involved in the underlying acts here, would it serve to demonstrate how seriously we take this situation and therefore, help to undo some of the damage to our reputation if you were to step down?

RUMSFELD: That's possible.

BAYH: I appreciate your candor.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEWS: Historic hearings on Capitol Hill. We're back with Senator Mark Dayton, Democrat from Minnesota, and Senator John Cornyn, Republican of Texas.

Gentlemen, I want to ask you about-Senator Cornyn, let me ask you this. What should be the standards we should apply in determining, or the president should apply in determining whether Rumsfeld goes or stays?

CORNYN: Well, ultimately, Secretary Rumsfeld serves at the pleasure of the president. The president has been very clear that he intends to keep him.

But I would say, for Congress, as a whole, we ought to expect that he balance his, this insatiable desire of Congress to know on a blow-by-blow occasion what's happening that may hit the headlines in the newspapers and show up on television.

And his obligation at the same time to conduct a criminal investigation, to maintain the integrity of that investigation, and make sure that those who are at fault are brought to justice. And I think that's what he's trying to do.

MATTHEWS: Should the secretary of defense have told the president there was a big bad news story coming? It involved these pictures. And sit down with the president in a very sober way and say we need a public relations and international diplomacy strategy, and we need to deal with the justice matters here. And we'd better get going on it.

Couldn't he have said it to the president three or four months ago?

CORNYN: I think once he realized the pictures were in the public domain, even though he hadn't seen the pictures, he acknowledged he failed to appreciate the significance of this and what the public reaction would be and failed to notify Congress and the president.

But the truth is this has been under investigation since January when the allegations first arose. And there's been an extensive investigation. And to determine who's at fault and how to remedy this problem and make sure it never happens again. I think they've conducted themselves well.

MATTHEWS: Well, is the horse out of the barn?

CORNYN: Well, I mean, these pictures convey in a way that the press release that Centcom issued on January 16, the horror of what was going on. And there's just no-no way to...

MATTHEWS: Well, what I need, gentlemen-you can start, Senator Dayton. If we have more videotapes involving children, involving more of this, I guess you can still call it perversion, is this going to mean that there's going to be more of a call for Rumsfeld to walk?

DAYTON: I don't think that's the issue here. This is disingenuous to say that we've known this. We haven't known this.

Why else would Secretary Rumsfeld or General Myers call the CBS to tell them not to run the story on "60 Minutes"? They said they were concerned about the consequences of our military. I share that concern.

But suppression of the truth, which is what they attempted to do, suppressing news reports of-the facts of what's going on there, is antithetical to democracy.

I asked whether the president or the vice president had been informed. They said not. I don't know whether their staff were. I don't know who had that information and why it was...

MATTHEWS: Senator Dayton, here's you asking that-those questions of Secretary Rumsfeld and General Myers about the motives for calling "60 Minutes" in the first place.

Let's take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DAYTON: Did you authorize General Myers to call CBS to suppress their news report?

RUMSFELD: I don't have any idea if he discussed it with me. I was-I don't know. I don't think he did.

DAYTON: Over the last two weeks, calling CBS to suppress the news report?

RUMSFELD: Suppress is not the right word at all.

DAYTON: I'm sorry sir, but...

RUMSFELD: It's an inaccurate word.

DAYTON: General Myers, did you discuss it with Mr. Secretary?

RICHARD MYERS, CHAIRMAN, JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF: This had been worked at lower levels for the secretary of staff and my staff for some time.

DAYTON: That you would call CBS to suppress the news report?

MYERS: I called CBS to ask them to delay the pictures showing on CBS "60 Minutes" because I thought the result would bring direct harm to our troop.

DAYTON: Is that standard procedure-Mr. Secretary, is that standard procedure for the military command of this country, to try the suppress a news report at the highest level?

MYERS: It didn't-let me just-Senator Dayton, this is a serious allegation.

DAYTON: It sure is.

MYERS: And it's absolutely-the context of your question, I believe, is wrong.

DAYTON: I understand the context, general. I told you this context earlier. I have very limited time, sir. I want to get...

MYERS: I want to take as much time as we need to straighten this out.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MATTHEWS: The question is suppress. What did it mean to you, that term?

DAYTON: When he called Dan Rather and asked him not to run the story. That's suppressing the news. That he said he wanted him to delay for-he didn't say how long, an indefinite period of time.

Is the commander of the U.S. military forces authorized to call the media and stifle a story?

MATTHEWS: Senator Cornyn, do you believe that's appropriate behavior by the top general, to tell a network, a news network to please not run a story, because it's detrimental to the national interests?

CORNYN: Well, Central Command issued a press release about these alleged abuses on January the 16th. So there was no suppression of the news.

But seriously, as all good Americans, knowing we have troops in harm's way, I think General Myers and perhaps the secretary were concerned that, particularly as Fallujah was particularly difficult, that this would harm American soldiers. And I don't hold it against him one bit.

MATTHEWS: They were right about that. Thank you very much, Senator John Cornyn of Texas, Senator Mark Dayton of Minnesota.