Hearing of the Senate Select Intelligence Committee - The Nomination of Michael Leiter to be Director of the National Counterterrorism Center in the Office of the Director of National Intelligence

Interview

Hearing of the Senate Select Intelligence Committee - The Nomination of Michael Leiter to be Director of the National Counterterrorism Center in the Office of the Director of National Intelligence

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SEN. RON WYDEN (D-OR): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Leiter, I want to follow up a different path in the same area as Senator Feinstein discussed to get your assessment of where we are today. Director McConnell gave us some stunning testimony three months ago. He said that al Qaeda's central leadership in Pakistan -- and I'll quote here -- "has been able to regenerate the core operational capabilities needed to conduct attacks in our country." So extra points for the director's, you know, candor, but I still want to get your sense.

As of today, are our counterterrorism efforts succeeding?

MR. LEITER: Senator, I think our counterterrorism efforts are succeeding along a number of fronts, and along a number of fronts, we obviously haven't succeeded well enough. I think --

SEN. WYDEN: But Mr. Leiter, how can you say we're succeeding when al Qaeda actually appears to be regenerating its capabilities? I think we'd agree there's no bigger terrorist threat than al Qaeda. So tell me specifically, how can you say we're succeeding when al Qaeda appears to be regenerating its capabilities?

MR. LEITER: Senator, what I was trying to say about that success is in terms of our intelligence capabilities of watching plots as they develop, tracking those plots, disrupting those plots and defending the homeland, there have been successes. We are doing far better today, I think, at NCTC -- but beyond NCTC -- than we were. Where we have clearly not succeeded, I agree with your question -- the premise of your question -- we have clearly not succeeded in stopping core al Qaeda plotting. We're better at disrupting it, but we have not disrupted the senior leadership that exists in the FATA, and we have also not stopped the organization from promulgating a message which has successfully gained them more recruits.

SEN. WYDEN: First of all, this isn't my analysis, this comes from the director and it reflects my view -- great credit on the director for his assessment. And if he says they're regenerating and you've said that, in many respects, the problem is not being addressed, that to me suggests that there needs to be changes in our strategy for dealing with the principal threat.

What is your view about the changes that need to be made?

MR. LEITER: Senator, I think the change in the government in Pakistan offers real possibilities. I think it offers possibilities to work with that government and then have them develop a plan. Ultimately, our success will rest on the success of the Pakistani government to address the problem which is, to a significant degree, within their borders. I think that is one area where we have to further our engagement with the Pakistanis and work with them to help them defeat it.

SEN. WYDEN: Do you believe that any time soon, the Pakistani government will be capable of taking away al Qaeda's safe haven in the Pakistani tribal areas?

MR. LEITER: I think we have to work with the Pakistani government both on capability and in --

SEN. WYDEN: The question was, do you think any time soon the Pakistani government will be capable of taking away al Qaeda's safe haven in that area?

MR. LEITER: I think if -- I think there is much more that the government of Pakistan could do.

SEN. WYDEN: I will ask you that question for the record so we get it -- a closed --

MR. LEITER: I'd be happy to --

SEN. WYDEN: -- transcript because that to me is the central question. Are we going to be able to get them to take away that safe haven any time soon?

One last question, if I have the time, Mr. Chairman. You've been very indulgent. I'm also concerned about terrorism financing from Saudi Arabia. The high prices that Americans pay at the pump right now are creating huge profits in Saudi Arabia, where oil wealth has made a large number of people very rich. And the problem, of course, is that many of these Saudi citizens turn around and use their oil money to finance terrorism around the world.

Now top Treasury officials have said publicly -- I was in the Finance Committee when they did -- that more money flows from Saudi Arabia to the Taliban and Sunni terrorist groups than from anywhere else in the world. In your view, how serious is this problem?

MR. LEITER: Senator, the problem of terror funding from Saudi Arabia and elsewhere is very serious. The Saudis have been extremely effective in disrupting major portions of al Qaeda within the peninsula, but they continue to face challenges in stopping funding elsewhere. I think they have been extremely effective in some ways, but there are many potential sources of funding.

SEN. WYDEN: How cooperative are they being now when it comes to cutting off funding for terrorists outside Saudi Arabia? I mean, it seems to me that they're interested in protecting their own country, but I don't see a lot of cooperation as it relates to the area outside Saudi Arabia and that this is a problem today. Is that true?

MR. LEITER: Senator, I'm not sure I would characterize it that -- exactly that way and I would ask -- considering the sensitivities here, I'd be happy to talk to you about that in a closed session.

SEN. WYDEN: I'll be glad to talk to you some more about it. But, I mean, this is a matter of public record. I mean, we're not talking about something that's classified. Stuart Levey came to the Finance Committee and, in response to my questions, said in public the Saudis are dragging their feet with respect to the Financial Intelligence Unit and the Charities Commission, and that's how they get all their money out around the world to finance terrorism. Is Mr. Levey right?

MR. LEITER: Senator, first I would largely defer to Undersecretary Levey, who I think is closer to this problem on a day- to-day basis than I am. I think that there are many things that we could discuss in closed sessions about particular efforts by the Saudis, both within the peninsula and overseas, that would give greater clarity to what the Saudi efforts have been.

SEN. WYDEN: I would like greater clarity, but I'd like some of it on the public record. I mean, Stuart Levey in particular talked about Saudi failure in two kinds of key areas. With oil at $100 a barrel -- I mean, the Saudi government certainly can't say they can't afford to take these steps. What arguments would there be for the Saudis not to take action to follow through on pledges they made to our country, both with respect to the Financial Unit and the Charities Commission? What possible argument would there be for their not following through?

MR. LEITER: Senator, I'm not here to defend the government of Saudi Arabia as to why they have or have not followed through on these commitments. I think the problem of funding of terrorism in Saudi Arabia and elsewhere is one that we have to pursue, and I think that Undersecretary Levey, as I said, who is extremely close to this, understands the challenges of Saudi Arabia. I think the Saudis have made great progress in some areas, and in other areas, like other countries, they have likely fallen short. And I would happy to discuss it in great depth in a closed session.

SEN. WYDEN: Chairman, can I ask one final question? I know --

SEN. ROCKEFELLER: One.

SEN. WYDEN: Thank you very much.

Mr. Leiter, you told Senator Bond that NCTC has only been engaged in counterterrorism messaging efforts for the last four months. Why did the NCTC decide to do this after not doing it for so long and what has been started in the last four months?

MR. LEITER: And Senator, I apologize. I really misspoke in saying that.

The NCTC, since we first helped author the National Implementation Plan in 2005 and '06 -- one of the key pillars of that plan was ideological engagement. So in that sense and in many respects, we've been involved since 2005, when we were first established. What we have started over the past four months -- a bit longer now, since January -- was a more forceful integration of efforts across the U.S. government, principally with CIA, Department of Defense and the State Department to coordinate messages and other outreach in a way that we were not given the opportunity to do before.

SEN. WYDEN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

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