ABC This Week with George Stephanopoulos - Transcript
ABC News Transcripts
SHOW: THIS WEEK WITH GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS (10:30 AM ET) - ABC
HEADLINE: DISCUSSION PANEL POLITICAL HOT TOPICS
BODY:
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS, ABC NEWS
(Off Camera) We're back with our panel. I'm joined by Senator Susan Collins of Maine, Republican member of the Armed Services Committee, Richard Perle, a former member of the Defense Advisory Board, Rand Beers, who used to work in the Bush National Security Council and now works as a senior foreign policy advisor for John Kerry. And, of course, George Will. And Senator Collins, let me begin with you. You heard Ambassador Bremer, there, right there at the end, June 30th is gonna stick. Are you convinced that's wise?
SENATOR SUSAN COLLINS, REPUBLICAN, MAINE
I'm not convinced that that's wise. I think we need to reevaluate the June 30th date. The situation in Iraq is extremely dangerous to our troops, to innocent Iraqi citizens and also to the administration's plans for transferring power on that day. I don't see how you can possibly transfer power in fewer than 90 days when we have such an unstable security situation. I think that would pose real risks.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
(Off Camera) But how do you answer what Ambassador Bremer and many others would say, and I want anybody else to jump in here, the observation that if you let that date slip, it is just going to unleash all of the forces in Iraq and it's gonna get worse not better?
SENATOR SUSAN COLLINS
It is obviously not a good situation no matter which decision is made. But to transfer power when we're not even sure to whom we would be transferring power, would be a mistake at this point. And might well result in Iraq erupting into civil war. That would be the worst of all outcomes.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
Mr. Perle, I assume you disagree?
RICHARD PERLE, AMERICAN ENTERPRISE INSTITUTE
I do disagree with that. I think we should have done it before now. We should have gone in in full anticipation of the very rapid turnover and we should have trained Iraqis before we went there. We didn't do that. We're playing catch-up. Now we have a date, it's a date certain. To change that at this point would do a great deal of damage.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
(Off Camera) Rand, Senator Kerry has also raised the possibility of slipping that date?
RAND BEERS,
SENIOR FOREIGN POLICY ADVISOR TO SENATOR KERRY
I understand. And I think there are real questions associated with it. But I think that Ambassador Bremer has also pointed out the down side. I think what we have to do here now is allow the Brahimi mission to proceed and see what we get out of his negotiations with the various parties as to whether or not we in fact can have a legitimate Iraqi government to which to transfer the authority and to see whether or not we can dampen down the violence in a way that would allow it to actually pass to an Iraqi entity. So I would say let's wait and see where things head.
GEORGE WILL, ABC NEWS
(Off Camera) George, you said a moment ago that if the date slips, the forces might be unleashed. What leash are they on at the moment? There is something like Chechnya in some of the cities over there.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
(Off Camera) Could be worse.
GEORGE WILL
(Off Camera) Could be worse, yes, and this generally can get worse. That's something we haven't anticipated. Richard says well, we should have done it sooner, we should have done this, we should have done that. We're dealing with what exists now. And what exists now is, as you have said in your interview with the ambassador, one of the four existing Iraqi battalions refused to go to Fallujah. Now, what we're certainly handing sovereignty over for is domestic security, first of all. That's the first thing government does. And there's no reason to believe that anything that can be reasonably called a government after June 30th, that's 80 days from today, that anything that can be called a government will exist that can impose that first ...
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
(Off Camera) Well, let me follow up on that because in this "Washington Post" article, there was some suggestion that the second Iraqi battalion didn't go because it wasn't asked because the Americans were afraid if they asked them, they would have said no. To that question that I asked Ambassador Bremer which he understandably didn't want to answer, if after June 30th the United States military believes they have to take aggressive action and the quote-unquote "sovereign government" says no, if that government doesn't have a veto power, it is not really a sovereign government.
GEORGE WILL
(Off Camera) What sort of government has sovereignty that's conferred upon it anyway on a date ascertained by a foreign power? That's a funny kind of sovereignty.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
(Off Camera) Senator Collins, you've, I know, advocated building up these Iraqi security forces. What do you make of the report in the "The Washington Post" today?
SENATOR SUSAN COLLINS
Well, it is very disturbing. The plans for transferring power on June 30th depended on the Iraqi security forces being in place, being well trained and being able to respond to outbreaks of violence. We all want to put an Iraqi face on this government. That's in everyone's interests. But if we transfer power before we have a stable security environment in the country, it's just not going to be successful. And when we read today that one of the Iraqi battalions, and there are only four, refused to help in Fallujah, that suggests that in fact they are not ready to take control and to take on this responsibility.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
(Off Camera) Mr. Perle, how can the United States fix that problem?
RICHARD PERLE
Well, we're in the process of fixing it now. And other Iraqi units have behaved admirably. This isn't perfect. But what's the alternative? If the alternative is to continue as an occupying power, I think we're going to see more of what we're seeing today. What we're seeing now is a desperate effort by people who understand that the transfer of authority is going to change fundamentally their basis for appealing to other Iraqis to come out into the streets because it would be an Iraqi administration.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
(Off Camera) I want to address that question, what's the alternative, and I want to pose the question to you Mr. Beers, because let me introduce it though, by showing something that Senator Kerry, your boss now, said earlier this week when he was asked about this.
SENATOR JOHN KERRY,
DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE
I mean, look, I'm not the president and I didn't create this mess. So I don't want to acknowledge a mistake that I haven't made. But let me tell you something, the president needs to step up and acknowledge that there are difficulties and that the world needs to be involved and they need to reverse their policy, the countries that were not involved in supporting us are not going to be part of the reconstruction.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
(Off Camera) The question is, though, how do you do that? How do you bring in more nations? Right now Secretary Powell went to NATO last week. They basically all said no. I mean, Senator Kerry time and time again says bring the United Nations in, bring in more international forces. It simply doesn't seem possible right now.
RAND BEERS
I think that that's a short-sighted view of what can possibly happen. In the first place Lakhdar Brahimi is currently there on a mission to try to resolve the issue of the transition of political authority to a legitimate Iraqi entity on the 30th of June. He's clearly got a major role there. Why not anoint the UN with the authority for the entire political transition. Start with the lead-in of the Brahimi mission.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
(Off Camera) So a UN high commission.
RAND BEERS
Continue to build it up over time. If we don't do that, if we don't change the strategy, then we have no chance of bringing in international authority.
GEORGE WILL
(Off Camera) It is galling, I suppose, for the administration to even contemplate that. Certainly galling for American conservatives to hear it said. But the point about the central role of the UN has already been conceded. When the administration after the failure to find weapons of mass destruction said, as it has said over and over again, the war was justified anyway because the Iraqis, the Saddam Hussein regime was in violation of X number of UN resolutions, the planted axiom already was that we went to war legitimately to strengthen the UN as an arbiter of international norms.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
(Off Camera) Last week, you said, if you're gonna take Vienna, take Vienna, talking about the military strategy. Now I hear you saying on the political strategy, once the UN is in a little bit, might as well give them all the power. That's a big switch for you.
GEORGE WILL
(Off Camera) It's not giving them military power.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
(Off Camera) Political power.
GEORGE WILL
There's only one military power. Political power, look, if they want that mess, let them have it. In fact, call their bluff.
RICHARD PERLE
How far do you want the go? Do you want to place American forces under UN command?
RAND BEERS
No, I'm in complete agreement with George, I'm talking about the political transition.
RICHARD PERLE
You want to put the UN in political charge and leave American forces there to do what they can with what the UN creates?
RAND BEERS
We have had this arrangement on a number of fronts where we have a political authority that's represented by the UN and a military authority that's represented by coalition forces, whether they're NATO or US-led.
RICHARD PERLE
It makes a huge difference whether we are in a position to make political decisions in consultation with the Iraqis or whether we've got go to the UN and the UN contribution is highly questionable in this case. They had the administration of Iraq under the Oil for Food program for years. And it was rampant with corruption and ineffectiveness. What makes you think the UN is going to be effective today? When the UN was in Iraq a few months ago and a bomb went off, they packed up and left. I think this confidence in the UN is wholly misplaced. I have far more confidence in the Iraqis themselves.
RAND BEERS
Consider the alternative.
RICHARD PERLE
The alternative is the Iraqis themselves.
RAND BEERS
We have been unable, we have been unable to negotiate with the Iraqis. Brahimi has. It seems to me that we've got an issue here, we're the occupying power, we need to get that label off of us. We need to move to the UN to take a leadership role. We will be in consultation with them. The military forces will still be commanded by the US.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
(Off Camera) Senator, excuse me, Senator Collins, you may actually be called on to vote on something like this. Do you believe now that we should be more aggressive to the UN, give them the political power, make a UN high commissioner the authority in Iraq?
SENATOR SUSAN COLLINS
I do. I think that's the, an option that we have to pursue. It would perhaps encourage other countries to finally commit some security forces and the commissioner, the special envoy from the UN who is trying to work out the transition issues right now appears to be the only hope for effecting a transfer of power on June 30th. It is not ideal but it seems to me it is really the only option that we have.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
(Off Camera) Another option has been raised this week. And it was raised probably most aggressively by Senator Robert Byrd on the floor of the Senate. And he said essentially we have to pull out. Here is how he finished up.
SENATOR ROBERT BYRD, DEMOCRAT, WEST VIRGINIA
At this juncture more US forces in Iraq equates more US targets.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
(Off Camera) More US forces are more US targets according to Senator Byrd. But what everyone says now with the notable exception, I think, of Senator Byrd in the Senate, we have to stay the course, we have to put more troops in. Mr. Perle, let me press the case a little bit. What would be so wrong at this point of speeding up the timetable toward elections and pulling out if indeed the alternative is uniting Shiite and Sunnis against us, pushing a policy that is either going to, appears it's very possible it's either going to fail now or fail later?
RICHARD PERLE
I don't believe that is the alternative. I don't think what you are seeing is anything like a mass uprising either by Shia or by Sunnis. The fact is you have a thug in the form of Sadr who is mobilizing the relatively small number of people around him, making a grab for power unwilling to wait for the transfer of authority and the possibility that he will not wind up in the commanding position he'd like to be in.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
(Off Camera) You call him a thug, but isn't he getting more powerful in recent weeks?
RICHARD PERLE
I don't believe he is getting more powerful. In fact, the number of people who have responded to his call is remarkably small given the difficulty of the situation we are now facing. And Sistani has clearly distanced himself from that call. We've got to deal with these flare-ups, there's no doubt about that. But to mistake the actions of a small fraction of the 25 million Iraqis with a general uprising I think is quite wrong.
GEORGE WILL
(Off Camera) But where are the 25 million Iraqis in all this? Ambassador Bremer said a moment ago to George, he said, the Iraqi people demand this and the, the Iraqi people aren't being heard from in this cacophony, in this simmering cauldron of ethnicity and religion, this is the sort of situation that is driven by intense minorities and their intense minority is a lot bigger than we've said. I mean, it's one thing to call them thugs, but they are thugs who seem to stand and fight. It's not the shoot and scoot as the Marines say. This is actually coordinated attacks. This is more than thugs. And these people, it is facile to say that they simply hate democracy. They hate a lot of things but it's not just democracy. They don't want us there, they don't want other people there. I mean, they have a complicated agenda. And just to dismiss them as thugs, as if this was a bad gang of south Los Angeles won't do.
RICHARD PERLE
I'm not dismissing everyone as thugs, George. I'm dismissing as thugs the relatively small number of people around one guy who is trading on his father's name and trying to grab power. That's what he's involved in. Most Iraqis want to get on with their lives. They want us out. They want a return of sovereignty. And here we're talking about delaying return of sovereignty.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
(Off Camera) But even General Abizaid has said, he talks about this concept of descending consent. And that the longer we stay, the less tolerant all Iraqis become of the occupation forces. And he's estimated most recently in the National Journal that we're about halfway through a grace period of two years, that the clock is really ticking.
RICHARD PERLE
It depends on the basis on which we're there. If we hand it over as we intend to do at the end of June and the Iraqis are now daily making decisions, if the announcements that come from the Iraqi government come from Iraqis and not from Paul Bremer, I think you'll see a significant change as the Iraqis become invested in their own future. They are far more capable than we think they are. And if I had to list the mistakes being made, high on my list would be the disparagement of the Iraqis themselves, the unwillingly to accept their capacities, treating them like children often.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
(Off Camera) So that means disbanding the Iraqi army, putting away the Baath party?
RICHARD PERLE
No, it means the disparaging attitude towards the governing council which under the circumstances has done a pretty good job. And the individuals who make up the governing council, I think when they are, when sovereignty has been handed over to them, will acquit themselves well. We have to give them a chance. We haven't given them a chance. We've been making the decisions for them. We've been acting largely in their name. When it is a reality, we'll see a difference.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
(Off Camera) Let me press you on this. You say give them a chance. If we were to give them the chance this week, presumably it would have meant calling off the offensive operations in Fallujah several days ago.
RICHARD PERLE
I'm not at all sure.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
(Off Camera) That's what they were calling for.
RICHARD PERLE
Adnan Pachachi said that he objected to the way it was done, but Ahmad Chalabi didn't.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
(Off Camera) They would resign if the operations continued.
RICHARD PERLE
So far I haven't seen any resignations. Look, there's real politics now even among the governing council as we approach the handover. And when the handover is complete, they will debate. They will decide. And if we repose a little bit of confidence in people who share our values and our objectives and have some following in Iraq people like Ahmad Chalabi, I think it will come out all right.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
(Off Camera) Let me just have one more question on this, then I want to switch subjects. Senator Collins, you've talked about, you said you wanted to bring the United Nations in. But in the short run, do you believe that more troops are necessary?
SENATOR SUSAN COLLINS
I do. But the answer is not to extend stays of the very weary reservists and national guardsmen who have already been there for a year, the answer is to redeploy American troops from other areas. You know, one area where the United Nations and the European allies can be very helpful is to take over responsibility for security in Bosnia and Kosovo. Why are our troops still in Bosnia and Kosovo? We need those troops in Iraq. So that's one area where we could redeploy troops. But in the short term, I think it is evident that we don't have control. I view Sadr's army differently than Richard does. It seems to me this isn't a rag tag band of militiamen, they're well armed, they're coordinated, they're able to fight. Our troops are having a difficult time retaking cities in southern Iraq. I'm sure we'll be successful. But this is a major challenge to us. And we need to have the troops there necessary to deal with it.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
(Off Camera) Okay, let me turn now to the issue of that Presidential Daily Brief which was released last night. Rand Beers, let me begin with you. You did serve on the Bush National Security Council, you were not there at the time this brief was given to the president in 2000, you came later, as the director of counterterrorism. But looking at the brief now, do you think, two questions, one, does it match the description that Dr. Rice gave in her testimony on Thursday? And two, reading it and knowing what you know from working there do you believe that everything was done that could have been done in response to that memo?
RAND BEERS
First of all, I think that on the one hand Dr. Rice is correct in saying that there's a certain amount of history in that document. But I think to the knowledgeable reader of the Presidential Daily Brief, and I read it for a number of years when I was in the Clinton White House and I read it again when I was in the Bush White House, although just the terrorism portions of it. That document was intended to tell the president of the United States that there was a serious problem. The title "Osama bin Laden Determined to Attack the US" was not a lightly chosen title. Those things are negotiated out within the CIA. And the facts or the intelligence material that was presented in that item said several very important things. It said there was some intent to attack. It said there were cells within the united states and they had been there for some time. It said that al Qaeda was very deliberate in its planning process and would take the time necessary in order to attack the United States. And then there were several pieces of information which suggested that there was some current activity within the United States. If you take that document and you put it together with the threat information that we know came out during the summer, you have to say that even though the predominance of the information said that the attacks will be overseas, you cannot discount the fact that it might happen.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
(Off Camera) Mr. Perle, you have also been a consumer of those briefs. What's your view?
RICHARD PERLE
Well, you get briefs like that all the time, everyday, as a matter of fact. What could any president ...
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
(Off Camera) That kind of brief everyday?
RICHARD PERLE
Yeah, basically. Terrorist warnings all the time. What could a president have done under those circumstances? Shut down the United States? Grounded all aircraft, gone into a panic mode? There was not enough specificity to take any action.
GEORGE WILL
(Off Camera) Richard, that's kind of classic bureaucratic mode. What are you going to do, close the Washington Monument? No. Here's what the president might have done. He could have said 70 FBI field operations, looking at this? He might have said, let's find out what they're all looking at. Might have by going back at that point have said, what's this out in Phoenix where the man said we have these suspicious pattern of foreigners in flight training?
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
(Off Camera) They said it wasn't brought up to him, to his level.
GEORGE WILL
(Off Camera) That's right. But that's how you force the action. The question of what could've been done, he could have said, my hair is on fire, to use the jargon of the day, what are they learning up there?
RICHARD PERLE
It is easy after the fact to identify pieces of information that had they been properly comprehended at the time would have led to some serious action. The classic analysis of this situation is Roberto Wolsteder's book on Pearl Harbor. She went back and read every intelligence report prior to world harbor. And guess what, you can find enough indications to suggest that Pearl Harbor is going to be bombed so that you can make the case that the president was asleep at the switch. But that information was embedded in so much other information that extracting it was virtually impossible. Even with computers we can't.
GEORGE WILL
(Off Camera) But what if a month before Pearl Harbor FDR had received a report saying we have evidence that there's a sweep coming from ...
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
(Off Camera) Senator Collins, I have to bring you in here.
SENATOR SUSAN COLLINS
Well, I was just thinking that hindsight is always perfect. We have to remember the volume of intelligence reports. Sure, we can all go back now and pick out a clue here and a tidbit there and add it together and say, precautions should have been taken. We have to keep in mind the environment, we have to keep in mind the volume of reporting that the president and his advisors are dealing with each and everyday. I just don't think it's fair to go back and say, well, if you'd only connected all of these dots when I don't think anyone would have been able to do that, regardless of who was in charge.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
(Off Camera) And that today is the last word. Senator Collins, Richard Perle, Rand Beers, George Will, thanks very much. We'll be back with "The List."