Hearing of the House Judiciary Committee - Oversight Hearing on the Federal Bureau of Investigation

Interview

Hearing of the House Judiciary Committee - Oversight Hearing on the Federal Bureau of Investigation

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REP. STEVE COHEN (D-TN): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Director Mueller, Mr. Wexler was asking you about some illegal tactics that the FBI did not engage in. And you sad you followed the protocol.

Does the protocol include informing other agencies that you believe what they were doing was illegal?

MR. MUELLER: Excuse me just a second --

REP. COHEN: Can this time not be counted against me?

MR. MUELLER: I'm sorry. Go ahead. (Laughs.)

I'm sorry. What was the question again?

REP. COHEN: Stop the clock -- (word inaudible).

Did -- the protocol, you say you wouldn't engage in torture. But did -- when you find out that other agencies may be engaged in torture that you believe is illegal, does your protocol include informing those agencies that you believe their actions are illegal?

MR. MUELLER: Yes.

REP. COHEN: Who did you inform in that situation?

MR. MUELLER: At points in time, we had reached out to DOD, DO Justice and -- DOJ in terms of activities that we were concerned might not be appropriate. Let me put it that way.

REP. COHEN: And do you inform both the Department of Defense and Department of Justice?

MR. MUELLER: During the period of time in question, after 2000, say 2002, there have been times when we have done that, yes.

REP. COHEN: And do you have -- can you supply us with copies of those letters or memoranda?

MR. MUELLER: I'd have to -- let me get back to you on that.

REP. COHEN: We'd appreciate if you would. I would like to request you to do that.

MR. MUELLER: Yeah.

REP. COHEN: And what was their response to you?

MR. MUELLER: Again, I'm not certain to what extent this is classified. I'd have to get back to you on any event.

REP. COHEN: If you could give us their responses as well, I'd like to know which agencies did not listen to you, Director, and engaged in torture.

I think that would be very important for this committee to know if there's departments -- (inaudible) -- Defense or Justice or any -- or CIA -- that don't listen to the director of the FBI.

MR. MUELLER: Well, the -- another factor that I think is important to recognize in this, what constitutes appropriate behavior under circumstances for other agencies is subject to legal opinions from the Department of Justice.

REP. COHEN: Yes, sir. I understand that. I agree with --

MR. MUELLER: And so we would, over a period of time, say, "Look, we have noticed behavior that may be questionable," and report it to the agency. That particular agency may be governed by the legal opinions that are not applicable to us.

REP. COHEN: Yes, sir. But I would listen to your opinion first.

You have a great agent in Memphis, My Harrison. And she's done a phenomenal job. She's convicted or brought prosecutions and juries and judges found guilty many public officials, many of whom were African-American.

You say 1,800 officials have been prosecuted over a period of time.

MR. MUELLER: Two years.

REP. COHEN: Do you have statistics to show that there's not a racial bias?

MR. MUELLER: Do not.

REP. COHEN: Could you -- can you -- do you have a racial --

MR. MUELLER: I'm not certain we keep that. I would be surprised if we kept any such statistic.

REP. COHEN: Is there any statistic that shows how many were Democrats and Republicans to show if there's some political bias?

MR. MUELLER: Don't keep that. We are nonpolitical. I think if you are fair and look across, you'll see that regardless of political affiliation, you have any number from various parties in that 1,800 figure.

REP. COHEN: Agent Harrison was able, through very outstanding work, to have an indictment brought against a man in Tennessee who had killed a Shelby County codes enforcement officer named Mickey Wright. The circumstances of his death were such, and the proof, that the attorney general pled to a second-degree murder or manslaughter, 15 years. And that was not sufficient for taking this man's life.

Through her diligent work, she was able to charge a hate crime because he was a government official. But if he weren't a government official, she couldn't have gotten the U.S. attorney to present to the grand jury and for them to return an indictment of a hate crime where it is a possibility of additional punishment for this man's murdering Mickey Wright.

Are you a supporter of the hate crime legislation that went through that would give you more power to enforce hate crimes?

MR. MUELLER: I'd have to look at the particular legislation before I gave an opinion as to whether we could support it or not.

REP. COHEN: It's the one that's already passed the House.

MR. MUELLER: Pardon?

REP. COHEN: It's the one that's already passed the House. It gave more power to the federal government to go after hate crimes.

MR. MUELLER: I'd have to specifically look at it before I could render an opinion.

REP. COHEN: Okay. If a person takes a corpse across state lines to avoid prosecution or to avoid discovery of the crime, and the facts otherwise don't constitute a federal crime, as they wouldn't here, except for My Harrison's work, would it be helpful to the FBI to have a federal law to make it illegal to transport a corpse across state lines for the purpose of avoiding detection of the crime?

MR. MUELLER: I'd have to look at the circumstances to see whether there wasn't a federal jurisdictional --

REP. COHEN: Let's assume they're in --

MR. MUELLER: -- to start with, and --

REP. COHEN: But let's assume there isn't, and a person took a body from, you know, New York to the Giants Stadium, or they took it from Memphis to Arkansas. Wouldn't it be helpful?

MR. MUELLER: Again, it's something I'd have to look at. Off the top of my head -- I'd really like to think about it before I render an opinion on that as well.

REP. COHEN: Thank you for that. And I appreciate --

REP. : Would the gentleman from Tennessee yield briefly?

REP. COHEN: Yes, sir.

REP. : To the gentleman behind you.

My -- I just want to point out for the record that while many of us today have used the word "torture," I think most of us have used it, that you, Director, have never said that the FBI ever engaged in torture. You've used the word "coercion," which is far different.

And I just don't want the imputation to be allowed to stand that FBI's ever engaged in torture, even though I and others have used the word today.

REP. SCOTT: Well, Mr. -- will the gentleman yield?

REP. : It's not my time. It's --

REP. COHEN: I will yield, once removed.

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