Hearing of the House Judiciary Committee - Oversight Hearing on the Federal Bureau of Investigation

Interview

Hearing of the House Judiciary Committee - Oversight Hearing on the Federal Bureau of Investigation

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REP. ROBERT "BOBBY" SCOTT (D-VA): Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

And I want to thank the FBI director for appearing with us today. And like you, Mr. Chairman, I believe that while the FBI should be able to get whatever information is necessary for the fight against terrorism, there also needs to be meaningful oversight.

First we need traditional oversight over the bureau's NSL powers. At last year's oversight hearing we heard about the inspector general's findings of illegal and improper use of national security letters to obtain phone and financial records and that required reports to Congress were inaccurate.

Last month the inspector general released another report which noted the bureau's own reviews confirmed numerous deficiencies in the process, including an almost 10 percent rate of unlawful violations which the bureau should have reported to the President's Intelligence Oversight Board.

The next question, of course, is where's the oversight in this process? We've learned from the recent IG report that the bureau has implemented internal policies and procedures, but it turns out that the checks and balances are presumably within the bureau itself. Checking with subordinates is not a check and balance. Some of us think that check and balance means that you check with another branch of government.

We've always had to -- we always have to think about what would happen if such power, such as obtaining information pursuant to an NSL, is subject to political whims. And that concern is not just hypothetical.

Republican-appointed officials have accused this administration of firing U.S. attorneys because they did not indict Democrats in time to affect an upcoming election. We've been unable to ascertain the truth of the allegations for several reasons.

First, high-ranking administration officials questioned the credibility of the attorney general -- the attorney general's original response to the allegations, another high-ranking Justice Department official quit, another pleaded the Fifth, and White House officials have refused to respond to subpoenas.

Now second, we need to determine the necessity behind the broad NSL power itself. Some 140,000 NSL requests over the three-year period may not have been necessary -- 140,000 requests. And are all of these requests related to terrorism?

At last year's oversight hearing the director testified that traditional FISA warrants would be too burdensome to acquire the information gained from an NSL. But are we bypassing traditional court oversight to engage in over-collection of information? We know understand that the Defense Department may be using FBI NSL power to access records that ordinarily it could not be permitted to obtain.

And finally, we have been told that while the bureau is asking for -- asking to continue its broad power to fight against terrorism, it is losing critical information under the traditional powers it has. The inspector general found, for example, that some intercept information required by a FISA order was lost due to the failure of the FBI to pay its phone bill.

Finally, we have to determine the -- how to best -- how the bureau is using the resources it has. If additional resources are needed to combat terrorism, we should be coming up with new resources rather than transferring powers, sacrificing the fight against white- collar crime and violent crime. We also need to make sure that other critical priorities and responsibilities are not left behind.

So I look forward to seeing what the bureau is doing in the fight against consumer identity theft, investigation of shootings of innocent civilians, and the assault and rape allegations of Americans serving our country in Iraq.

I thank you, Mr. Chairman, and look forward to the bureau's responses.

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REP. CONYERS: Crime committee Chairman Bobby Scott.

REP. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. Chairman

And thank you, Director Mueller, for being with us today. At our last meeting we discussed the needs of the FBI in the area of linguistics and you mentioned that you can get a breakdown of the needs of the FBI in this area -- linguistics, languages. And I don't think I formally asked for the breakdown, but could you give us some information on which languages you may have shortfalls in?

MR. MUELLER: Well, we still have a --

REP. SCOTT: If you don't have it with you --

MR. MUELLER: -- shortfall in terms of the Middle Eastern languages and Asian languages. I would say in those two areas --

REP. SCOTT: I serve on the Education and Labor Committee, so if we could get a breakdown of that and also of the diversity numbers for all of your employees, I'd appreciate if you could provide that for us.

MR. MUELLER: Happy to do that. Happy to do that.

REP. SCOTT: What is being done with the -- we had allegations of sexual assault committed by persons working for contractors in Iraq. Are allegations of sexual assault by persons working as contractors in Iraq being investigated and, if appropriate, prosecuted?

MR. MUELLER: I know we have a number of investigations going with regard to activities in Iraq. Ultimately the -- we're constrained in two areas: the first area is by conducting investigations in an area where you can't assure the safety of our persons, you can't go out and interview witnesses as you would on the streets of the United States --

REP. SCOTT: Well, let me just ask a shorter question. Are we doing the best we can to investigate and, if appropriate, prosecute those allegations?

MR. MUELLER: Yes.

REP. SCOTT: Okay. In the area of torture -- I know these questions may require -- you may not be able to answer in open session and if that's the case that's just the case. Have you authorized torture by any FBI agents?

MR. MUELLER: Can I or have I was the question?

REP. SCOTT: Have you?

MR. MUELLER: No. It has been our policy -- it's been the protocol of the FBI traditionally not to use coercion in interrogating individuals or questioning individuals. And we have adhered to that protocol.

REP. SCOTT: Okay. Now, apparently your agents have been trained appropriately along those lines, but to your knowledge have FBI agents warned other administration employees that those employees may be breaking the law by torturing people?

MR. MUELLER: There have over the years been occasions where our employees have informed employees of other agencies that they believe their conduct was not appropriate.

REP. SCOTT: Have any FBI arrests of U.S. citizens been made for torturing people?

MR. MUELLER: I'd have to get back to you. I do believe that there have been investigations -- formal investigations of torture by either contractors or members of another organization which we are the investigating body. And my belief is that in at least one case that has been brought back and the person successfully prosecuted here. I think it was in North Carolina. It may have been South Carolina.

REP. SCOTT: Thank you. ID theft, one of the problems with -- when you have these major breaches in security and subsequent loss of identifying information is the fact that ID theft seems to be a crime that is rarely investigated and prosecuted. What can we do to ensure that even run-of-the-mill ID thieves will be pursued?

MR. MUELLER: Well, we pursue the larger breaches. The ability of hackers to steal information has grown exponentially over the last several years. The Department of Justice has a task force concept in which we participate in which most, if not all, of the U.S. attorneys have come together with state and local law enforcement as well as ourselves participating to address the identity theft.

But it is a substantial problem, a huge problem and it takes tremendous resources.

It would take tremendous resources to address every one of them. We have to pick those that are the large intrusions, where there are substantial numbers and names that are stolen and pursue those, and that we do.

REP. SCOTT: If you could get us some estimates of resources that would be needed to pursue even more cases, we'd appreciate it.

Public reports reveal that the FBI had some phones cut off because of failure to pay phone bills. Is that true? And if so, what happened?

MR. MUELLER: We did not have a financial system that assured throughout our 56 field offices, 400 resident agencies that the phone bills were paid on time. There were five instances, going back to 2002, in which apparently -- where we had an interception. It was for a period of time disrupted until the bill had been paid. We focused on two, I think they were in 2002 and absolutely no harm came to the investigation. That's as a result of the IG report that we -- which identified five instances in which that may have happened.

REP. SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, I know my time has expired. I'd like to pose another question that I could get an answer in writing since my time has expired, if that be appropriate.

And the question is, what is the FBI doing to combat human trafficking? You mentioned that in your opening statement, especially whether or not you're using our new legislation which removed the necessity to prove force, fraud and coercion in the cases. If you could -- I know my time has expired -- if you could get that information to us, we'd appreciate it.

MR. MUELLER: We'll do it, sir.

REP. SCOTT: Thank you.

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