MSNBC "Hardball with Chris Matthews" -Transcript

MSNBC "Hardball with Chris Matthews"

MR. MATTHEWS: Once the Democratic race is finally settled, if that day ever comes, could either Clinton or Obama accept the vice presidential slot? Given the tenor of the campaign -- and I mean by lately, the last couple of days -- it seems like this would be a strange-bedfellow situation.

But there is a precedent for pairings like this. In 1960, of course, John Kennedy put aside any animosity he had towards Johnson, who, of course, had put out word that Kennedy had Addison's Disease, which, of course, was true. And he gave him the vice presidential slot, and it worked well for both of them. Johnson helped Kennedy in the South, particularly in Texas.

And in 1980, Ronald Reagan and George Herbert Walker Bush teamed up after a hard-fought primary fight between the two of them, and, of course, they put it together, even though George Bush had accused the president, in that case Reagan, of practicing voodoo economics. That, too, was a winning pair.

In 2004, after battling John Edwards for the nomination, John Kerry chose Edwards as his running mate. That was a bad move. And, by the way, he never even carried his own state of North Carolina for the Kerry ticket. That was not a successful pairing.

So could Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama put aside their differences, which are growing, and come together on a Democratic ticket and possibly win against John McCain and whoever he picks, come November?

Joining me right now to talk about that is Clinton campaigner Kiki McLean and Obama campaign national co-chair, U.S. Congresswoman Jan Schakowsky.

Congresswoman, I have to ask you, can you envision on the platform in Denver, come the last week in August, two people on that stage together, Barack and Hillary, or Hillary and Barack?

REP. SCHAKOWSKY: Well, I would imagine that both candidates at this point would say the difference would hinge on who's at the top of the ticket to even consider it. And I think both of them would say it's premature to say that right now.

You know, we're locked in a battle right now for the nomination. I believe that it will be Barack Obama, who's ahead by any measure. But I think he has a lot of respect for Hillary Clinton. But he's not thinking about that now.

MR. MATTHEWS: Could Hillary Clinton carry Illinois without Barack on the ticket?

REP. SCHAKOWSKY: Oh, Hillary Clinton could carry Illinois, certainly. She's from Illinois, from my district is where she grew up. Sure.

MR. MATTHEWS: God, she's from everywhere. I thought she was from Scranton.

REP. SCHAKOWSKY: (Laughs.)

MR. MATTHEWS: I can't keep track of this -- Scranton, Arkansas, Chappaqua. This is like a railroad schedule that she's from.

REP. SCHAKOWSKY: It pays to move, you know.

MR. MATTHEWS: Kiki McLean, let me ask you the wide-open question. Can you envision a pairing of these two political dynamos?

MS. MCLEAN: I can envision folks being up on the stage to support one another. But the congresswoman and I agree on a lot tonight, which you might not expect on Pennsylvania primary evening, and that is it's way too early for that.

You know, Chris, I was fortunate enough to be the spokesperson for Joe Lieberman as the vice presidential running mate to Al Gore. I was also fortunate enough to travel with the Gores when Vice President Gore was traveling as Bill Clinton's running mate.

And your set-up story here was very important, and it was this great respect candidates have for one another and their work. It'll be very important to picking that person. But we're nowhere ready to pick who Senator Clinton's running mate will be when she's the nominee. It's the one place the congresswoman and I disagree tonight. I happen to believe it'll be Hillary Clinton.

MR. MATTHEWS: How come you did such a good job with Gore as a running mate and such a terrible job with Lieberman? He wouldn't even criticize Cheney. He looked like he was trying to join Cheney's club.

MS. MCLEAN: You know what? I think Joe Lieberman did a great job. And I recall --

MR. MATTHEWS: He was a terrible running mate -- terrible.

MS. MCLEAN: Chris, I think you're --

MR. MATTHEWS: Terrible.

MS. MCLEAN: I think you're really --

MR. MATTHEWS: He delivered not a single state for the ticket. He did not help Al Gore carry a single state.

MS. MCLEAN: Chris --

MR. MATTHEWS: Name a state that he helped him with.

MS. MCLEAN: I think we won the election. I think most Americans would tell you --

MR. MATTHEWS: Oh, okay.

MS. MCLEAN: -- that Al Gore and Joe Lieberman got the election.

MR. MATTHEWS: Oh, I'm sorry.

MS. MCLEAN: I think he put Florida in play for us before it even became a controversy. And I think Joe Lieberman was a terrific running mate. And he and Al Gore had a lot of respect for one another's history and their work together, and they won that election.

MR. MATTHEWS: A flat-out disaster that one was.

MS. MCLEAN: So I think that was a successful pairing.

MR. MATTHEWS: Gore was a great one.

Let me go back to Congresswoman Schakowsky. You can have a good pairing and a bad pairing. Edwards was useless on the ticket for John Kerry. Lieberman was useless. But Al Gore was fabulous in helping Bill Clinton carry the South and the country. How do you put together a good ticket? Is this the ticket we should be looking at?

REP. SCHAKOWSKY: Well, I think that Kiki is right. I'm not among those who think that the battle that's going on right now is going to damage the Democrats and that the only way we can put it together would be to have the two of them on the ticket. But they will be -- as Kiki said, they're going to both be on the stage, and we're going to win. I think it's going to be Barack at the top. We're going to win this race in November.

You know, I'm looking forward to the point where the Democrat, where Barack, can begin to point at John McCain. And I'm just worried that the longer that this does go on in a negative way, particularly from the Clinton side toward Barack, that it's going to be harder and harder.

And I'm really sorry that it has taken a turn this way.

MR. MATTHEWS: Do you agree with that, Kiki?

MS. MCLEAN: Well, agree with what, that it's taken a hard turn? I think that there are legitimate issues being debated in Pennsylvania, as there were in Ohio and Texas, about national security, about the economy, and who's best able and prepared to deal with those issues from the leadership role as president.

I think that's a good debate to have and a legitimate one. And I think millions of Americans agree, because they want to see this process play out. They want all those voices heard from. After tonight, Chris, after you have to actually pack up and leave your home state tonight, we still have nine races to go through --

MR. MATTHEWS: Right.

MS. MCLEAN: -- and we're going to do that.

MR. MATTHEWS: Well, it's exciting stuff. I just wonder whether the Democrats, for those who care about the Democratic Party's fortunes come November -- one thing I heard from a lot of county chairs in Pennsylvania the last couple of days, polling them, Kiki -- and I know you keep in touch with them, and so do you, Congresswoman -- they are afraid that the Democrats may blow this election in November, an election they really believe they should win because of the war in Iraq, because of the economy and the need for health care. They're afraid that this fight, this intramural fight between the two candidates, is really going to hurt them, come the fall.

REP. SCHAKOWSKY: Let me say, Chris --

MS. MCLEAN: Let me tell you something. I think that -- go ahead, Congresswoman.

REP. SCHAKOWSKY: Yeah. You know, the Clinton campaign is acting like these negative ads are some sort of a public service announcement so that they show that Barack Obama can really take the heat. Let's be clear. These ads are designed to destroy Barack Obama, to try and suggest that he can't be a commander in chief, that he's unelectable. And I think that's reprehensible.

And Bill Clinton himself said, you know, you should go with the candidate who appeals to your hopes and not your fears. That's one of his laws, Clinton's laws of politics. And I agree with Bill Clinton about that. And the candidate of hope is Barack Obama.

MR. MATTHEWS: Kiki?

MS. MCLEAN: You know, I actually think that tough primaries are good for us in the general election. I think Bill Bradley's challenge to Vice President Gore made him a better candidate in the general election.

REP. SCHAKOWSKY: Right. And (let's talk ?) about health care, then.

MS. MCLEAN: I actually believe that when you have two candidates who are engaged on the issues -- and, listen, Senator Clinton's ad has really been about the reality that we face. We're in tough times. We have two wars going. We have an economy that's about to just absolutely fail us.

REP. SCHAKOWSKY: You know what, Kiki?

MS. MCLEAN: And we've got to talk about who's really ready, and it's really a question --

REP. SCHAKOWSKY: This ad is right out of Karl Rove's playbook -- right out of his playbook.

MR. MATTHEWS: I guess the question is --

MS. MCLEAN: I think it's all right, Congresswoman.

MR. MATTHEWS: The question is --

MS. MCLEAN: I think Democrats will come back together.

MR. MATTHEWS: The question is, of course, if Hillary Clinton -- does she want Barack Obama to be the ultimate winner in November if he wins the nomination? I guess that's the question on the table right now. We'll see in the next couple of weeks whether Hillary Clinton wants Barack to win the general if he wins the nomination. And that's, of course --

MS. MCLEAN: I think Hillary Clinton wants Hillary Clinton to win the general when she's the nominee of the party, Chris.

MR. MATTHEWS: But does she want him to win if he wins the nomination to be the president?

MS. MCLEAN: She has answered that question. She is going to work her heart out to make sure it is a Democrat who wins in November.

MR. MATTHEWS: We'll see.

MS. MCLEAN: And that means it's either going to be her or Barack. She believes she's better prepared.

MR. MATTHEWS: That's the great question. Does Hillary Clinton want Barack to be president for the next eight years if she can't be? If she can't be.

MS. MCLEAN: She wants a Democrat to be the president, you bet.

MR. MATTHEWS: Well, that's an open question the American people are trying to get the answer to. Anyway, Kiki McLean, thank you for giving me your answer.

MS. MCLEAN: Thanks, Chris.

MR. MATTHEWS: And U.S. Congresswoman Janice Schakowsky, thank you for joining us.

REP. SCHAKOWSKY: Thank you.

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