Hearing of the Energy and Water Development Subcommittee of the House Appropriations Committee - Department of Energy: Nuclear Nonproliferation
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REP. KEN CALVERT (R-CA): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Sir, based on your testimony, we've spent a considerable amount of money, obviously in Russia and other places, to assure that the security of the arsenal and of material takes place. As you are aware, last year six nuclear weapons flew from one Air Force facility to another in place of dummies, and obviously by accident, and just recently we found that four fuses instead of batteries were sent to Taiwan, and for 18 months they sat there, and the Department of Defense didn't even know that they had sent those fuses, even though Taiwan apparently had contacted the Department of Defense on several occasions and let them know that they had something there that they thought weren't helicopter batteries.
Obviously that's not your purview of the Department of Defense to secure their own weapons and their own fuses and et cetera, but perceptually as you go around the world convincing others to secure their nuclear weapons and to secure their nuclear material, is that being shot back to you, about are we doing enough to secure our own nuclear arsenal and our own nuclear material?
MR. TOBEY: Frankly, we try and deal with these issues in a cooperative way. So far from having these things shot back to us we occasionally cite them and say, "Look, we understand that material security is a difficult matter, and that's why it requires extra caution, extra measures." And as a consequence, we're willing to cite even our own failings when they become public in dealing with other countries to encourage them to improve their practices.
Just as an example of this, I had a discussion with our Russian colleagues, and I cited the fact that a friend of mine is a parachutist. At the end of -- at the back of a parachuting magazine they often have what they call incident reports. The incident reports are there not out of a sort of ghoulish interest, but to prevent others from having the same activity occur. And I cited reports of either material getting loose or these other things as our equivalent of incident reports, and we should treat them as such.
REP. CALVERT: On that, are we -- do we have complete surety that the fuses weren't reverse engineered in Taiwan?
MR. TOBEY: That really is an area where I -- I don't have any knowledge of what's gone on there.
REP. CALVERT: Well, talking about activities within the United States, I notice that in your budget request you have $14.4 million to secure domestic sources. So I guess the question would be why do you need that money to secure domestic sources if you -- you must believe that we're not doing enough to secure our own nuclear material.
MR. TOBEY: The domestic sources are domestic radiological sources that become disused by industry. And there isn't a good disposition path for some of those sources, or they might've been owned by companies that have become bankrupt. So we've actually secured some 16,000 sources.
REP. CALVERT: Well, isn't it true that because -- rightfully or wrongfully -- since we have not moved ahead with Yucca yet, and we have a secure location to place a lot of this material, we have hundreds of locations where we have radioactive material just kind of out there? Isn't that an accurate statement?
MR. TOBEY: Well, it is accurate, certainly, to say that there are hundreds of locations where there are radiological materials.
REP. CALVERT: Is it accurate to say that some locations are more secure than others?
MR. TOBEY: Yes. That's true, too. We are working to upgrade the security with both private industry and other elements of the government of radiological sources.
REP. CALVERT: How secure would you say that material is?
MR. TOBEY: Well, I said in my opening statement that one of our priorities in dealing with what we perceive as a dynamic threat has been to move from the nuclear weapons material -- which we are winding down our work on -- to the radiological -- the civil, nuclear and radiological material. So I'm concerned about it.
REP. CALVERT: One last question regarding Pakistan -- we all read the newspapers and the difficulties that Pakistan is having with their government -- what's your assessment of the dedication and competence of the Pakistani military to secure their own nuclear arsenal?
MR. TOBEY: My understanding is that they have a very professional military, and I believe they are motivated to secure their own arsenal.
REP. CALVERT: So if an unfortunate circumstance takes place where a government that is not favorable to United States interest takes over, you believe that the nuclear weapons systems would be secure?
MR. TOBEY: Well, there you've moved into the realm of the political, and I'm not an expert on how the Pakistani military relates to their political superiors.
REP. CALVERT: So the answer is we don't know.
MR. TOBEY: Well, the answer is I don't know.
REP. CALVERT: Yeah. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
REP. : Will the gentleman yield for just a second?
REP. CALVERT: Sure.
REP. : I just -- these -- the U.S. sources of unsecured material, where do we store those? Where do we put them? Are you looking for secure storage locations? Because I'm going to suggest a couple. (Laughs.) Where do we put them now?
MR. TOBEY: My understanding is that they go into a facility called the WIPP at this point.
REP. : So they go for permanent repository?
MR. TOBEY: Yeah.
REP. : If there are other -- if there are places where they need to be stored, I'm -- let me suggest there's a couple places called 651 and 691 --
REP. HOBSON: Yeah. I don't think --
REP. : -- which are pretty good locations.
REP. HOBSON: -- I don't think that's correct. WIPP only takes defense material.
MR. TOBEY: Perhaps I'd better look into it and get back to you.
REP. HOBSON: Yeah.
REP. : If you need additional space, I know where you can find them.
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