MSNBC "Hardball With Chris Matthews" - Transcript

Interview

MSNBC "Hardball With Chris Matthews"

MR. MATTHEWS: We begin tonight with the 40th anniversary of the assassination of Martin Luther King Jr.

Kweisi Mfume is a former Democratic congressman from Maryland. He's also former head of the NAACP in this country, and he's an Obama supporter.

And U.S. Congressman Gregory Meeks is a Democrat from New York. He's a Hillary supporter.

Let me start with Congressman Mfuse (sic). What do you think about the politics of this day in terms of where the candidates went? Two of them, McCain and Hillary, went down to Atlanta -- or was it Memphis, I guess? No, Atlanta. Was it Memphis? Which one? Memphis. And Obama stayed up in Indiana, where he's campaigning in the primary up there.

MR. MFUME: Well, I think there was symbolism in both places; Memphis, obviously, because that's where the crime occurred; Indiana, because the people who were working with Bobby Kennedy at that time -- it was Bobby Kennedy who made the announcement there. And so there's symbolism in both places.

One thing is interesting. Dr. King perhaps is even more alive today than he was 40 years ago. He's in this political process. He's in schools. He's in history books. We find a way over and over again to talk about what he did and why his principles are important. We try to live as a country, to kind of live out the course that he set for us.

And much of what Dr. King embraced are the things that we encourage people to embrace today. He's a part of our national dialogue, more now than ever, and politically, obviously, as reflected in the candidates and in future candidates, and candidates long from now will continue to do, and that is to find a way to call attention back to Dr. King as one of the best things to happen in this country.

MR. MATTHEWS: Congressman Meeks, do you have any problem with the fact that Senator Obama chose to honor this occasion, or to mark it, rather, by going to Indiana rather than going to Memphis, Tennessee?

REP. MEEKS: I don't have any problem with it. I think that where he was and what he said speaks for itself. I think that what all the candidates have done today is a very positive thing.

As my good friend, Kweisi Mfume, said, today, you know, marks the 40th anniversary of the death of Dr. King, and we're still trying to live up to his dreams. In fact, when you think about what his last speech was talking about, economic justice for individuals, there's a lot of work for us to do to make sure that we change the disparity between the haves and the have-nots, which is growing greater and greater every day.

And what this is about is when we elect a new president -- that's why I am proud to be a Democrat, that I know that one of our candidates are going to be an African-American man or a woman, which means that we're starting to look at people not by the color of their skin or their gender but by the content of their character.

And I think that's the direction that this country has to move in, and we've got to be able to talk about things in an open manner and move forward that way, but address the issues that Dr. King laid his life down for. And as he ended his life, he was talking about economic justice. He was fighting for those workers in Memphis, Tennessee. And those are the things that we still need to do today.

MR. MATTHEWS: Let's take a look at Senator Obama speaking today in Indiana.

SEN. BARACK OBAMA (D-IL), DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: (From videotape.) No. I mean, I think that, you know, I spoke at Dr. King's church on his birthday, was with the King family then. I obviously gave a fairly fulsome speech on the state of race relations just two weeks ago. And I think it's important to spread the message that Dr. King's work is unfinished in places like Indiana and North Dakota.

MR. MATTHEWS: Let's take a look now at Senator Clinton down in Memphis today and what she had to say.

SEN. HILLARY CLINTON (D-NY), DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: (From videotape.) We did not include Dr. King, or me either. Women and African-Americans were left out of America's founding promises. But he never gave up, and neither should we.

MR. MATTHEWS: Well, the question there, I guess, for you, Congressman Mfuse (sic), is this whole question of generation. We're talking here about race in America. That's the topic, because it's the King memorial, 40 years after. That's a lot of time. And I'm wondering whether we're seeing that time passage in the way the vote's splitting there is a real divide generationally. If you look at people in this country under 40, for example, they lean heavily to Barack Obama. Is that because they were raised in the environment that he helped to shape?

MR. MFUME: Well, I think it's the manifestation of the teachings of Dr. King as passed on through their parents and as they've grown up in this society they've become comfortable with.

I also think it's because they recognize, as Dr. King was -- who, by the way, was only 39 when he was assassinated, 26 when he made the cover of Time Magazine, and in his early 30s when he won the Nobel Peace Prize -- there's a direct relation and identification among a lot of those persons who are under 40 years of age.

Senator Obama, who I assume and I believe will be our next president and, first of all, the nominee of the Democratic Party, I think, in many respects exudes that. There is a kind of relationship that people can identify with. It doesn't mean that older people don't embrace him and support him; they do.

It's just that he encapsulates so much of what this younger generation was raised on -- to believe that you could make a difference, that the color of your skin ought not hold you back, that you ought to try to find a way to reach for the stars. That's what he's doing. And I think the identification there is a belief in this generation that we can do anything that we want to do and that we set our minds to do.

MR. MATTHEWS: Same question to you, Congressman Meeks. Why is it that older Americans, white Americans, are more resistant? I know you're for Hillary Clinton, but when you look at the results, it's hard not to notice this generational split.

REP. MEEKS: Well, first of all, for the final two candidates in the Democratic primary to be Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama, it shows that everyone is moving forward. You have a race that's virtually tied right now. Neither candidate, it seems, is going to reach the 2,025 mark of delegates. It is a virtual tie. The country's split. Families are split.

You know, you've got families down the line that are on different sides in this race.

MR. MATTHEWS: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Congressman, are you saying this election is a 50-50 proposition, that Senator Clinton has an equal chance right now to win this race with Barack Obama? You say it's about 50-50 now. Is that your theory?

REP. MEEKS: Clearly you need 2,025 votes to win.

MR. MATTHEWS: Yeah, but who's got the most delegates?

REP. MEEKS: Well, number one, the campaign's not over with yet. We still have states to count, and there are still roles for super- delegates to play to determine who's going to be the nominee of this party. So this race is very much a wide open race.

MR. MATTHEWS: Okay, how would that be good for race relations in America if the "House of Lords" overrules the elected delegates? How would you like to see that in the streets of America if the word went out in the headlines of the newspapers and on the networks, "All the voting doesn't matter, because now the super-delegates" -- this "House of Lords" that's been created by the DNC -- "is going to overrule the people"? Do you think that'll be a way to celebrate King's legacy?

REP. MEEKS: Look, no one is talking about the "House of Lords." What we need to talk about --

MR. MATTHEWS: Well, who are these people that get to vote?

REP. MEEKS: We're still talking about individuals, for example, like the state of Florida.

MR. MATTHEWS: Right.

REP. MEEKS: There's a lot of individuals that were deprived of their right to vote in 2000, you know, what took place there. We have to make sure those votes count. We've got to count in Michigan. So when you want to look at the whole scenario, I think everybody has to count.

But you also have to look at the rules of the Democratic Party. You know, if, in fact, the rules said that whoever had the majority of votes at the end of the process wins, then that's one thing. But the rules said there would be 2,025, and if no one reached the 2,025, then super-delegates have a role to determine who would be in the best interest of the party.

MR. MATTHEWS: Let me go to Congressman Mfume.

Mr. Mfume, do you believe that'll sell to the American people, regardless of background or race or whatever? Will they accept a decision made by these -- I'll call them the "House of Lords," the unelected officials of the Democratic Party who come in after the voting is over in June and decide who should win, despite the numbers?

MR. MFUME: Well, I personally, Chris, believe that the numbers are going to be so overwhelming and so compelling on behalf of Senator Barack Obama that the super-delegates will do the right thing, and that is, as we've seen, a gradual shift toward him in the uncommitted delegates. They're shifting every day. They will continue to do so.

The other interesting thing, though, I think Senator Clinton would have to win Pennsylvania big. She'd have to win Indiana, Oregon, North Carolina, Puerto Rico by huge margins to be able to even get close to the pledged delegate count. Senator Barack Obama leads, as you know, in terms of the overall vote.

And I believe that super-delegates are looking at Obama's campaign and are recognizing, as many people in America, that unless something overwhelming happens -- and we don't expect that it will -- he ought to be and should be and will be the Democratic nominee.

MR. MATTHEWS: Congressman Meeks, you don't agree.

REP. MEEKS: No, well, I think that you also have to take a good look at the states that are important, those states that are the battleground states as well as those states that historically have been Democratic states when you look at an Electoral College.

We learned in 2000 that what's important to win these elections is you've got to win the Electoral College. In 2000, you know, individuals were saying Florida, Florida, Florida. In 2004 they said Ohio, Ohio, Ohio. We could be talking about Pennsylvania, Pennsylvania, or we could be talking about --

MR. MATTHEWS: Right.

REP. MEEKS: So we don't know what states are going to be the key states, the states that are going to make the difference, and who's going to be the next president of the United States. And for me, in the end, it's about winning in November.

And we want to make sure -- and I think that's what all of us have to do -- I think we're going to have a great candidate, whether it's Senator Clinton or Senator Obama. We're going to have the right person to beat McCain, but we've got to make sure that we win the states that will elect a Democrat in November. That's what this is all about.

MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you very much, gentlemen. It's great to have you on, former Congressman Kweisi Mfume, former head of the NAACP, and U.S. Congressman Greg Meeks of New York.

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