MSNBC "Hardball With Chris Matthews" - Transcript
Interview
MSNBC "Hardball With Chris Matthews"
MR. MATTHEWS: Congressman Joe Sestak is a Pennsylvania Democrat who supports Hillary Clinton for president. Congressman Adam Smith is a Washington State Democrat who's for Barack Obama for president.
Admiral, Congressman Sestak, let me ask you this. What do you make of Hillary Clinton's claim, now abated, that she was involved in enemy fire back in '96? Let's take a look at the claim she made about having been in hostile action back in the days of Bosnia.
SEN. HILLARY CLINTON (D-NY, Democratic presidential candidate): (From videotape.) I remember landing under sniper fire. There was supposed to be some kind of a greeting ceremony at the airport, but instead we just ran with our heads down to get into the vehicles to get to our base.
MR. MATTHEWS: Well, that was her memory before, and here's Senator Clinton talking on KDKA Radio out in Pittsburgh today.
SEN. CLINTON: (From audiotape.) You know, I have written about this and described it in many different settings, and I did misspeak the other day. You know, this has been a very long campaign. (Laughs.) So occasionally -- you know, I am a human being like everybody else.
The military took great care of us. You know, they were worried about, you know, taking a first lady to a war zone and took some extra precautions and worried about all kinds of things. But I've written about it in my book and I've talked about it on many other occasions. And last week, you know, for the first time in 12 or so years, I misspoke.
MR. MATTHEWS: Well, perhaps it wasn't the only time she misspoke in this regard in terms of embellishing or, in fact, fabricating an event that didn't happen. Here's Senator Clinton on February 29th of this year in Texas.
SEN. CLINTON: (From videotape.) One of the great honors of being first lady and of being a senator is the time that I was privileged to spend with our troops here at home, in Iraq and Afghanistan, in Bosnia, in Kosovo, in places around the world. I remember particularly a trip to Bosnia, where the welcoming ceremony had to be moved inside because of sniper fire.
MR. MATTHEWS: And here's Senator Clinton on the Bosnia issue late today.
SEN. CLINTON: (From videotape.) I made a mistake and, you know, I had a different memory. And, you know, my staff and others have, you know, all kind of come together trying to sort out. So I made a mistake. That happens. It proves I'm human, which, you know, for some people is a revelation.
MR. MATTHEWS: Well, we'll see about that. Let's go to Congressman Sestak.
Congressman, it seems to me all of us have memories that fail occasionally. We forget things that happen. But we rarely, I think, remember something that didn't happen. In fact, coming in under enemy fire, ducking and covering because you're under sniper attack is an event one either recalls correctly or imagines. How do you explain that Hillary Clinton imagined that incident?
REP. SESTAK: Well, Chris, you're a student of history. You remember when Teddy Roosevelt was running for president. He claimed he led the charge up San Juan Hill with the Rough Riders. Actually he didn't. He went up Keaton Hill, and it turned out to be that was not true. You remember --
MR. MATTHEWS: But he, in fact, faced enemy fire. And he, in fact -- I read all about it, Admiral, and you did too -- he actually was in a firefight. Was Hillary Clinton ever under enemy fire? Did she ever duck and cover because of sniper fire ever in her life? That's the question.
REP. SESTAK: No, and that's what's great about her. She said, "Hey, I misspoke. I was mistaken." But let's take all the incidences, because the important issue here, Chris, is the whole cloth of the woman. You had Franklin Roosevelt who, when he ran for vice president, actually claimed he was a Latin American expert, and here he was saying he wrote the constitution for Haiti, or John F. Kennedy. He claimed that there was a missile gap, and he had Addison's Disease.
The point is this, Chris. Would we have wanted them as president? You bet we would have. And so you look at the whole record.
MR. MATTHEWS: Why are you defending -- Admiral, you amaze me. You are a loyalist. What are you actually defending here?
REP. SESTAK: Well, let me tell you --
MR. MATTHEWS: Are you defending lying? Is that what you're defending? Or what are you defending? Tell me what you consider fair ball in the game, if you will, of getting elected president? How big a fish can you claim to have caught if you caught none? That's all I'm asking.
REP. SESTAK: Well, Chris, you know, I went to the Naval Academy. There was an honor code there. But very few people read that honor code. That honor code says, hey, you won't lie, steal or cheat. But it also says if you see someone who does, you don't then report them. You have a choice. You report them or you counsel them, because we recognize that we're humans.
Whether it's Teddy Roosevelt, Franklin Roosevelt, John F. Kennedy or Hillary Clinton or Senator Obama, we all have our faults. The question is this: Who's ready on day one, because of what she learned in Bosnia, in order to lead this nation? That's the key question.
MR. MATTHEWS: Okay, let me go to Congressman Smith. Your thoughts, Congressman Smith, about this. I don't know what the word misspeaking -- we use words in politics like "Mistakes were made," I mean, the strangest lingo, as if, you know, "I meant to do this, but I did something totally different." In fact, they just said something that didn't happen, and we have to deal with it.
REP. SMITH: Well, whatever Teddy Roosevelt and Franklin Roosevelt's strengths or weaknesses are, I think we can all agree that dishonesty is not something we're looking for in a presidential candidate. And I think there is a troubling pattern here.
And this gets back to the whole message that Senator Obama has been running on from the start, that we need to fundamentally change the way we do business in Washington, D.C. We need someone who has a different approach, who doesn't go and spin everything to absurd levels, as Senator Clinton seems to do and as her campaign seems to do. Who's going to focus honestly on issues when they come up?
And I think this is a great opportunity for Senator Obama to once again point out he's going to bring about that change. He's going to approach politics and issues honestly, not constantly try to spin them in a way that makes them unrecognizable from the truth.
And I think this is also important on the experience issue. And Congressman Sestak made the point she's ready on day one. Based on what, exactly? The experience has been greatly exaggerated. And throughout this campaign and throughout Senator Obama's career, what we've seen from him is judgment, good judgment in difficult times, as he stepped up and addressed the issue of race relations honestly and openly. That's the type of leadership you need to be ready to face a crisis on day one. Dishonesty isn't going to get you there.
MR. MATTHEWS: Let's take a look here at what former President Clinton said on Friday about Hillary Clinton and about McCain facing off in November.
FORMER PRESIDENT BILL CLINTON: (From videotape.) I think it'd be a great thing if we had an election where you had two people who love this country and were devoted to the interests of the country and people could actually ask themselves who's right on these issues instead of all this other stuff that always seems to intrude itself on our politics.
MR. MATTHEWS: You know, Admiral and Congressman Sestak, you know, President Clinton, doing the job he has to of selling the possible future success of his wife as a presidential candidate in November, glosses over the fact that the Republicans are not going to treat this well. Imagine, given what they did to John Kerry last time when he was fighting for our country over in Vietnam, going after whether he deserved a particular medal or not, what they would do with Hillary Clinton claiming to have been in a battle zone or not. What will they do, the swiftboater types, the 527 companies, organizations? What will they do, Congressman --
REP. SESTAK: Yeah, you know --
MR. MATTHEWS: -- with Hillary? They'll destroy with this, won't they?
REP. SESTAK: But, no -- but that's -- you point out the strength of Senator Clinton. This is -- she has been in the game with her (skin ?) 15 long years. She's been out there. Everything has been exposed about her. She's different.
MR. MATTHEWS: Well, not yet. We just learned this baby.
REP. SMITH: Right. (Laughs.)
REP. SESTAK: She is truly different.
MR. MATTHEWS: This is new stuff.
REP. SESTAK: But, no, let's step back. You know, if you noticed, what I talk about is not Senator Obama, who I think is a fine candidate. It's the strengths of Senator Clinton. Whenever people get on, it's not the critic that matters. It's not that person who points out that the strong man stumbles, as -- (inaudible).
MR. MATTHEWS: Right. I know.
REP. SESTAK: What is important here is you've got someone who has persevered and does have experience. Look what she learned from Bosnia. She learned from Bosnia that we went into that country with over 50 percent of our troops non-U.S. and that we went into Iraq with less than 7 percent non-U.S. She watched Ireland. She saw that only when peace was done by Ian Paisley and Gerry Adams at the top politically did military security ensue.
That's why she has pointed it out, because she's seen it from the Senate Armed Services Committee, where she's the only senator ever to be asked by the U.S. military to be on its task force for transforming the military.
MR. MATTHEWS: Okay, let me ask Congressman Adams (sic) to respond to that.
Congressman Smith, what do you make of this story about Senator -- it just seems to me, in all fairness, that if Barack Obama had been caught with a fish story like this --
REP. SMITH: Yes.
MR. MATTHEWS: -- at this point in the campaign, people like Howard Wolfson rightly, Hillary Clinton's people, her press people, would have been destroying the guy this week. It would have been a hullabaloo like you've never seen. It'd be like Jerry Ford saying that Poland was free during the Cold War. They would have lacerated the guy over this issue. And now Congressman Sestak is playing defense as best he could, but it just seems to me, in all fairness, that the Obama campaign would be dead in the water right now if he were caught with such a fish story.
REP. SMITH: And if I could drag Senator McCain into this, what if Senator Obama had, you know, said that al Qaeda and Iran were allies? I mean, that story has been blown over too. The same thing would have happened.
I think the point here -- first of all, to, you know, make President Clinton feel better, whether Senator Obama or Senator Clinton gets the Democratic nomination, we're going to have a candidate who loves this country. We're going to have a candidate who believes in America and believes in making it better.
The choice that we see in Senator Obama's camp is having a candidate who isn't simply going to be business as usual, those 15 long years that Congressman Sestak referenced to, that seem to have taught Senator Clinton some bad lessons about how to communicate with people and how to address issues. We need to move past that partisan divide, that constant spin, that constant attack politics, to focus on the issues, which is what Senator Obama has been doing. He gives us a chance at the change we so desperately need in this country.
REP. SESTAK: But if that's true, Adam, then why attack her, if you are against the politics of attack? See, this is my issue.
REP. SMITH: Oh, no, no, no. But Joe, that's not what I said.
REP. SESTAK: We need both of us to come together --
REP. SMITH: That's not what I said.
REP. SESTAK: -- and make sure that we push the strong points of our candidates. And that is truly what I think this electorate wants, a change in the tone --
REP. SMITH: And it certainly hasn't come --
REP. SESTAK: -- and so that when either side has made a mistake here, we have to move on beyond that and not let the staffs and the supporters (bibble ?) back and forth across each other --
REP. SMITH: Well, I mean, that's going to happen. And Joe, new politics isn't about never saying anything negative about your opponent. We're going to have to say some things negative about John McCain in this election, and that's okay. But the question is, does it focus on policy, on substantive issues, or does it focus on minutiae and does it focus on spin?
MR. MATTHEWS: Okay, let me ask you --
REP. SMITH: Let's focus on the --
MR. MATTHEWS: -- Congressman Sestak -- Congressman Sestak, do you take Senator Clinton at her word?
REP. SESTAK: Yes, I do. I've known her in the White House.
MR. MATTHEWS: Even in this case? Even in this case?
REP. SESTAK: Yes. She said she misspoke. She said, "I erred." I take her completely at her word. How few individuals do that immediately? And so, yes, I do take her for that. And let's move on. Is she best for this country, because of what I saw her do in the White House, where she there met with individuals who were concerned about Agent Orange for our vets in Vietnam and helped establish a women's veterans' memorial in Arlington Cemetery with nothing told to the public about that. That's why I'm for this senator. I know that she cares deeply and can bring about the change. She's tried it from health care to other things. She is about change.
MR. MATTHEWS: Okay, we're out of time. Thank you, gentlemen, both of you.
REP. SESTAK: Thanks, Chris.
MR. MATTHEWS: I have great respect for both of you. Thank you, Congressman Joe Sestak and U.S. Congressman Adam Smith.
Source