MSNBC Decision 08' - Transcript

Interview

MS. O'DONNELL: Senator Richard Durbin is a Democrat of Illinois and a supporter of Barack Obama.

Senator, great to see you. Thank you so much for joining us.

SEN. DURBIN: Thanks, Norah.

MS. O'DONNELL: As you know, NAFTA has been a flashpoint in this campaign, particularly in Ohio because they are hurting in Ohio and a lot of people in Ohio think NAFTA has hurt them jobs.

The charge that Senator Clinton's campaign is making today is that one of Barack Obama's senior economic policy advisers met with Canadian officials and said, listen, this whole debate, it's just, quote, unquote, "political posturing," and Senator Clinton said it was just a wink-wink, we're really not going to change policy.

Is that true?

SEN. DURBIN: No, of course not. The campaign has denied it and as Barack Obama just said, the Canadian embassy has denied that it ever happened. I don't know where the story came from. Senator Clinton made a reference to it in her speech, but I can tell you that Barack Obama knows and I know that there are aspects of NAFTA that need to be changed and need to be renegotiated.

We've suffered from some of the provisions in that treaty in our home state of Illinois and he believes as I do that the next president has to accept this as one of his first responsibilities.

MS. O'DONNELL: Well, do you know any more information then? Because it seemed to be from the Obama campaign. They were denying that any meeting took place. It is clear that, in fact, someone from the Obama campaign did meet with Canadian officials.

So what did he tell them?

SEN. DURBIN: Well, of course, I don't know that, and the Canadian government said such a meeting never took place and the campaign has said such a meeting never took place and now look where we are? The day before this critical primary we're trying to figure out whether somebody who worked for the campaign had a conversation with somebody else. It really shows you we're in the kitchen sink phase of this campaign. Candidates are going to throw whatever they can get their hands on at the other candidate.

MS. O'DONNELL: Senator, I know you may be interested to learn this, so we wanted to just show you and our viewers this clip. It just turns out that the Canadian parliament in a session today where both the Labor leader and the prime minister weighed in, they're essentially fighting over this issue. Take a listen.

CANADIAN LABOR LEADER: (From videotape.) The prime minister's office has been interfering in the Democratic primaries with false accusations, trying to silence Barack Obama, who simply wants to amend, simply wants to amend the NAFTA. It is completely unacceptable for that kind of interference to be taking place.

Will the prime minister fire the source of the interference? Fire his chief of staff?

CANADIAN PRIME MINISTER STEPHEN HARPER: (From videotape.) The Canadian embassy in Washington has issued a statement indicating its regret at the fact that information has come out that would imply that Senator Obama has been saying different things in public than in private. Mr. Speaker, the government of Canada does not condone this and certainly regrets any implication.

MS. O'DONNELL: There you have it.

SEN. DURBIN: Well --

MS. O'DONNELL: You know, a little bit more spice than the U.S. Senate I must say.

SEN. DURBIN: Well, it looks like we're going to have a Canadian primary now, which none of us had anticipated, but in all seriousness, if I heard both sides they both just said it didn't take place and it shouldn't have resulted in any comments made about the Canadian government.

So I don't think there's any story here.

MS. O'DONNELL: Senator, let me turn to the larger picture of where we go from here. Today, Senator Clinton on the campaign plane with reporters said I'm just getting warmed up. When she has been asked about whether Texas and Ohio tomorrow will be decisive, she said she's not going to predict. Bill Clinton has said it's important to win those two states, but she's not gone essentially on the record on those two things.

Do you expect that this nomination fight is going to continue no matter what beyond tomorrow? It looks like she is willing to continue to fight this thing.

SEN. DURBIN: Only Senator Clinton can make that decision and I'm sure she'll consult with her family and her closest supporters.

MS. O'DONNELL: Do you think it would hurt the party?

SEN. DURBIN: Well, I think it's time for this to come to an end and for the party to come together, but Senator Clinton certainly has the right to make that decision. Understand -- 370 delegates are up to tomorrow. If someone doesn't have a decisive outcome tomorrow with a large group of delegates going, for example, to Senator Clinton, then Senator Obama is still 160 delegates ahead with only 611 left to be chosen.

MS. O'DONNELL: But senator, you know even if she just wins by a small margin, she's not going to get this large number of delegates; it's almost impossible for her to win the delegates. But what about that argument? She can say I won Ohio, I won Texas, I won New York, I won New Jersey, I won California and although there weren't official primaries in Michigan and Florida, I won those, I'm the better Democrat to beat the Republican come November.

SEN. DURBIN: Well, it's like going to a baseball game and just listening to the cheering of the crowd and never looking at the scoreboard. If you look at the scoreboard in this race, time is running out on Senator Clinton. There are very few delegates left to be chosen and in order to have more delegates at the end of the day than Senator Obama, she needs overwhelming victories in the remaining races and in only one state so far has she had more than 60 percent of the vote and that was Arkansas. Senator Obama has had a double-digit margin in 18 states so far.

So, I mean, when you're looking for momentum, Senator Clinton needs dramatic momentum to get back in the race.

MS. O'DONNELL: Senator Dick Durbin. Great to have you on. Thanks for joining us.

SEN. DURBIN: Thank you.

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