NBC "Meet the Press" - Transcript

Interview

MR. RUSSERT: Our issues this Sunday -- as Obama moves ahead of Clinton in the elected delegate count, the candidates exchange strong words on the campaign trail.

SEN. HILLARY CLINTON (D-NY): (From videotape.) Some people may think words are change, but you and I know better -- words are cheap.

SEN. BARACK OBAMA (D-IL): (From videotape.) When she writes speeches alone, don't do anything. But, you know what? Neither do negative attacks.

MR. RUSSERT: With us for Barack Obama, his fellow Democratic senator from Illinois, Dick Durbin. For Hillary Clinton, her fellow Democratic senator from New York, Chuck Schumer. Durbin and Schumer square off.

Then -- we reunite the renowned Capital Gang for some insight and analysis on this extraordinary campaign. With us, Margaret Carlson of Bloomberg News; Al Hunt of Bloomberg News; Robert Novak of The Chicago Sun-Times; Kate O'Beirne of The National Review; and Mark Shields of PBS's "The News Hour With Jim Lehrer."

But, first, this Tuesday it's Wisconsin and Hawaii; two weeks from Tuesday, Ohio, Texas, Rhode Island, and Vermont -- Obama versus Clinton. And joining us now, two senators, each representing the candidates -- Senator Chuck Schumer, from Clinton's home state of New York; Senator Dick Durbin from Obama's home state of Illinois. Gentlemen, welcome both.

SEN. SCHUMER: Glad to be here, Tim.

SEN. DURBIN: Good to be with you.

MR. RUSSERT: Senator Durbin, let me start with you and, Senator Schumer, please watch. Here are the latest polls from Wisconsin -- It's Obama 47, Clinton 42; from Ohio, a week from Tuesday, right now it's 55, 34; and in Texas, 49, 41. Senator Durbin, how do you see the race?

SEN. DURBIN: Well, I can tell you that we feel good about it. We've seen record turnouts in the Democratic primaries, and I think there's a feeling that Barack Obama has captured the imagination of millions of voters across America. That's good for the party, and it's good for the country. We don't take anything for granted. We're ahead, at this point, in elected delegates. We're going to continue to work hard, but I think this message that Barack Obama has brought to the campaign is resonating.

The people of this country want to see a change; they want to see this country move forward, and the fact that he is now attracting a lot of younger voters who have never participated -- independents and even Republicans -- is an indication we can put a coalition together to not only win in November but to govern and to solve some of the problems afterwards.

MR. RUSSERT: Senator Schumer, are Texas and Ohio must-wins for Senator Clinton?

SEN. SCHUMER: Well, I don't know if they're must-wins, but they are very, very important, no question about it. As you've seen by the polls, she's doing well in those important states and, you know, Hillary Clinton, she knows how to get from point A to point B. She has experience. She has deep knowledge of how government works, and she never gives up.

And, you know, there are setbacks, there are ups and downs in this campaign -- Obama ahead, Clinton ahead, Obama ahead. One thing is for sure -- this campaign is going to twist and turn a whole lot of times, and I'd say to voters, to everybody, I've seen it myself -- don't count Hillary Clinton out because she is one fighter; she has tremendous knowledge, tremendous experience, and I think when you look at it, Barack is a great candidate but Hillary, by her experience, is the better candidate and the better president.

MR. RUSSERT: Senator Durbin mentioned elected delegates, let's look at those. Right now, it's 1,116 for Obama, 985 for Clinton, a lead of 131. The superdelegates, it's now Obama, 183; Clinton, 257, these are elected officials, party officials. Last Sunday, it was 174. Obama's gained 9 in a week. Clinton was at 262, she's lost 5 -- some erosion from people who have switched sides.

Let's look at contests won in popular vote -- Obama has won 21 states plus the District of Columbia and Virgin Islands, that's 23; Clinton, 11. The popular vote -- Obama, 9.3 million; Clinton is 8.6 million, that's a cumulative figure.

Senator Schumer, if Barack Obama was ahead at the end of this primary season in elected delegates, states won and popular vote, should he be the nominee?

SEN. SCHUMER: Well, you know, again, to predict what will happen after June 7th, when there are going to be so many twists and turns, you need to know lots of details -- Did he win the other states 60-40 or did he win them 50.1 to 49.9? Is the popular vote overwhelming or is it not?

Let me say this, Tim. This is a closely fought contest. It is going to twist and turn a whole bunch of times, and I think making a set rule now in February when we have until June 7th, when there are 19 states, many important ones -- Texas, Ohio, Pennsylvania -- that haven't voted; when we know the way these campaigns work, there are twists and turns, it doesn't make sense. Each candidate is fighting hard, it's a darn close election, I think Democrats believe that this is a very good election because we think there are two good candidates as opposed to, "Oh, we have to settle for somebody," and making a set rule now of any type -- each candidate is going to proffer the rule that is in their best interest right now, but, for the moment, let's let the primaries move forward, and let's see where we are at the end of the day on June 7th.

BREAK IN TRANSCRIPT

MR. RUSSERT: Senator Schumer, Nancy Pelosi, the speaker of the House, said to Bloomberg News, "It would be a problem for the party if the verdict would be something different than the public had decided." Do you agree?

SEN. SCHUMER: Well, let me say this -- There are good arguments on each side. Nancy Pelosi, MoveOn.org, have said basically what you've just quoted. Howard Dean and Jim Clyburn have said that the superdelegates ought to vote their conscience, and each has an argument there.

I have another goal here, and I think Dick agrees, by what he said, and that is that, at the end of the day, we don't have such an internecine battle that we lose the general election. Most Hillary supporters are strong for Hillary; most Barack supporters are strong for Barack, but I think most of us all feel winning that general election and making sure that there is not another four years of Bush- McCain is predominant.

So having a set rule in sand when, of course, each candidate chooses the rule at the moment that is in their self-interest makes no sense. We ought to let this play out and then -- and I don't think that -- and I have to say this to Dick -- I don't think either candidate wants or can even get away with forcing their will down the throat of the other. At the end of the day, on June 5th, for the sake of party -- June 7th, Howard Dean and the two candidates will have to get together if neither candidate has 20-25, which is the margin that the rules require to win and come up with a strategy. Each candidate will have to have buy-in to that strategy to determine who wins, because if the loser and their supporters stalk away, then we will lose the general election.

So, you know, this -- this issue of how the superdelegates ought to vote, you know, this great epistemological, metaphysical issue -- no one thought about it three months ago. To me it is not a great moral issue. The great moral issue is defeating George Bush, John McCain, and coming up with a way that we can walk away from the convention unified, and neither Hillary Clinton nor Barack Obama, I think, want to have an internecine fight where one side is so bitter that the other feels that they can't enthusiastically support the winner.

BREAK IN TRANSCRIPT

MR. RUSSERT: Senator Schumer, Senator Clinton said in October, "You know it's clear -- this election they're having in Michigan is not going to count for anything." Is that your position?

SEN. SCHUMER: Well, no -- here is the bottom line once again, Tim. Each candidate, of course, takes the position that benefits them at the moment. Now, on this one, popular vote, particularly in Florida where no one violated the rules, but Florida went ahead on its own and had an election, and Hillary won. Now, Senator Obama naturally says, "Don't seat Florida." Senator Clinton says, "Do seat Florida."

MR. RUSSERT: Wait, wait, wait a minute, Senator. The Clinton campaign put out a statement saying they accepted the DNC rules. So you're no longer accepting them?

SEN. SCHUMER: Well, let me say this, Tim. The bottom line is for Florida and Michigan, I believe it's much like the superdelegates. There's a great dispute here, and it's not just Hillary Clinton. The senators from Michigan, Debbie Stabenow and Carl Levin, one of whom is endorsed, one of whom hasn't, says you just seat Michigan. The senator, the Democratic senator from Florida says "You must seat Florida, those are my voters, they should be paid attention to."

Here is what we have to do -- the same thing as the superdelegates. Should Florida and Michigan be hanging in the balance, and we get to June 7th, and I don't think that will happen, by the way. I think there is going to be a clear winner. I think it's going to be Hillary, but that's how these things work; Al Gore said it Sunday.

But let's say we're not there. Then Howard Dean, Hillary Clinton, and Barack Obama have to sit down and come up with a process that both sides buy into and both sides will abide by. You cannot, you cannot let these internecine battles create a war. If they were to seek the Florida and Michigan delegates, the Barack Obama campaign would feel aggrieved, and who knows what would happen in the general election? If they were not to seek them, the senators from Michigan and Florida would feel aggrieved; Hillary Clinton would feel aggrieved. Again, we'd have a fight.

We're going to have to -- it's premature now to say we must do this. We have four months of an election, tens of millions of voters, and twists and turns in a campaign we don't know. But the overall rule, Tim, that has to govern here, and I think Dick would agree with it -- my guess is, in their heart of hearts, Hillary and Barack both agree, even though we're in the heat of a campaign, is to come up with a general way to solve this problem.

It's unique, we haven't had this since -- I don't remember -- I think 1956, where you haven't had a majority govern before the convention, but come up with a plan that each side can buy into and each side will abide by no matter who the ultimate winner is.

MR. RUSSERT: One of the plans being proposed is that there be caucuses in Michigan and Florida where both Obama and Clinton could compete. Would you support that?

SEN. SCHUMER: Well, again, Barack has done better in caucuses, Hillary has done better in primaries, so I guess the Clinton campaign would say, "If we're going to have something, you have to have primaries." The problem there is Florida has a Republican governor and a Republican legislature, and they might not go in primaries.

Again, to say right now what should be done, I know you know this is -- the punditocracy loves this -- it's premature, and it's destructive for the Democratic Party where, you know, we have blown it before. You know, we thought we were going to win in 2000, we won the popular vote, we didn't have the president. We thought we were going to win in 2004 -- we are on the edge of victory here because Americans want change, and both Hillary and Barack represent change. To have these fights right now destroy the party, greatly weaken the party, makes no sense. Let's go through the election, let's go through the primaries, through to June 7th; I believe we'll have a clear winner. If we don't, you have to have not Chuck Schumer, not Dick Durbin, not some backroom group, but Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama sit down and come up with a way to solve this that each can buy into before the winner is chosen.

MR. RUSSERT: Senator Durbin, would you support a do-over, a new caucus or primary in Florida and Michigan where the candidates could compete?

SEN. DURBIN: Well, we certainly don't accept these elections because we agreed and Senator Clinton agreed that they wouldn't count. And so now to count them is fundamentally unfair and doesn't play by the rules that Senator Clinton and Senator Obama agreed to.

Now, the states of Michigan and Florida, as Chuck has described here, have their own set of challenges. When I asked the senators from Michigan, could we do a caucus? They say "No, we can't get that done." Well, they certainly are not going to have time to do a primary, I wouldn't think. So it really is a very difficult situation that's been created.

I do agree, and I think Senator Obama agrees with Chuck's premise -- at the end of the day, we should follow the principle of fairness, we should stick by the rules that were agreed to, we should respect the voters who turned out in record numbers in these Democratic caucuses and primaries. If, at the end of the day, it appears in Denver that something happened in a back room by the elite or the big shots or those well connected, that isn't any good for the Democratic Party, and for those of us who want to change the course of this nation like Senator Obama and Senator Clinton, we don't want that outcome in Denver.

SEN. SCHUMER: Here, here, we agree.

MR. RUSSERT: We have to leave it there -- Senator Schumer, Senator Durbin, you are roommates here in Washington?

SEN. DURBIN: That's true.

MR. RUSSERT: You are the odd couple?

SEN. DURBIN: Which is really true.

MR. RUSSERT: Which one is Felix and which one is Oscar?

SEN. DURBIN: If you mean who makes their bed, that's me.

(Laughter)

SEN. SCHUMER: He is the neat one but, Dick, I was at the house last night, you weren't there, I was lonely.

(Laughter)

MR. RUSSERT: We're going to leave it there.

SEN. DURBIN: Did you make your bed?

SEN. SCHUMER: No, Dick.

BREAK IN TRANSCRIPT

Source