NBC "Meet the Press"-Transcript
Interview
NBC "Meet the Press" - Transcript
MR. RUSSERT: Our issues this Sunday -- as Obama moves ahead of Clinton in the elected delegate count, the candidates exchange strong words on the campaign trail.
SEN. HILLARY CLINTON (D-NY): (From videotape.) Some people may think words are change, but you and I know better -- words are cheap.
SEN. BARACK OBAMA (D-IL): (From videotape.) When she writes speeches alone, don't do anything. But, you know what? Neither do negative attacks.
MR. RUSSERT: With us for Barack Obama, his fellow Democratic senator from Illinois, Dick Durbin. For Hillary Clinton, her fellow Democratic senator from New York, Chuck Schumer. Durbin and Schumer square off.
Then -- we reunite the renowned Capital Gang for some insight and analysis on this extraordinary campaign. With us, Margaret Carlson of Bloomberg News; Al Hunt of Bloomberg News; Robert Novak of The Chicago Sun-Times; Kate O'Beirne of The National Review; and Mark Shields of PBS's "The News Hour With Jim Lehrer."
But, first, this Tuesday it's Wisconsin and Hawaii; two weeks from Tuesday, Ohio, Texas, Rhode Island, and Vermont -- Obama versus Clinton. And joining us now, two senators, each representing the candidates -- Senator Chuck Schumer, from Clinton's home state of New York; Senator Dick Durbin from Obama's home state of Illinois. Gentlemen, welcome both.
SEN. SCHUMER: Glad to be here, Tim.
SEN. DURBIN: Good to be with you.
MR. RUSSERT: Senator Durbin, let me start with you and, Senator Schumer, please watch. Here are the latest polls from Wisconsin -- It's Obama 47, Clinton 42; from Ohio, a week from Tuesday, right now it's 55, 34; and in Texas, 49, 41. Senator Durbin, how do you see the race?
SEN. DURBIN: Well, I can tell you that we feel good about it. We've seen record turnouts in the Democratic primaries, and I think there's a feeling that Barack Obama has captured the imagination of millions of voters across America. That's good for the party, and it's good for the country. We don't take anything for granted. We're ahead, at this point, in elected delegates. We're going to continue to work hard, but I think this message that Barack Obama has brought to the campaign is resonating.
The people of this country want to see a change; they want to see this country move forward, and the fact that he is now attracting a lot of younger voters who have never participated -- independents and even Republicans -- is an indication we can put a coalition together to not only win in November but to govern and to solve some of the problems afterwards.
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MR. RUSSERT: Senator Durbin, if a candidate, either Clinton or Obama, happen to be ahead in elected delegates, states won, popular vote, and the other candidate was given the nomination because of superdelegates, what would happen at the convention?
SEN. DURBIN: That would be a serious problem. You know, the voters will have the last word in November, the elected delegates should have the last word in Denver. Those are the delegates who stood for the voters. I'm one of the superdelegates as is Chuck. There are almost 800 of us. We've been involved in this party and given a lot of our lives to it, but let's be very honest about this -- the final word has to be decided by elected delegates.
And I listened carefully to what Chuck had to say, and I can perceive what the Clinton strategy is now -- to use these superdelegates to try to overcome the vote of elected delegates, and that would be unfortunate. It may be divide our party. And we ought to have the wisdom and judgment as superdelegates to want this party to be united coming out of Denver.
The last point I want to make is this -- It isn't just a matter of winning as we go forward, it's the margin of victory that counts when you deal with proportional delegates. For example, New Jersey was a hard-fought state, but at the end of the day, Senator Clinton prevailed. Kansas was a hard-fought state. At the end of the day, Barack Obama prevailed. Barack Obama netted more delegates out of Kansas than Hillary Clinton netted out of New Jersey.
So the margin of victory is important, and in 14 states, Barack Obama's margin of victory has been over 20 points. It takes those margins to really move delegates.
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MR. RUSSERT: Besides superdelegates another important issue is Florida and Michigan, and this is what happened. Back in August of '07, Howard Dean wrote this letter to all the candidates, "As leader of the Democratic Party, I strongly urge you to adhere to the 2008 delegate selection rules. The 2008 delegate selection rules adopted by the full DNC at its August 2006 meeting, clearly provides that only four states -- Iowa, Nevada, New Hampshire, South Carolina -- they hold their respective contests prior to February 5, 2008. The Rules and By-laws Committee's finding of non-compliance included a 100 percent loss of pledged and unpledged delegates. If you try to move your primary up, you've lost all your delegates." Florida and Michigan did it, they lost all their delegates.
The Clinton campaign put out this statement, "We believe Iowa, New Hampshire, Nevada, and South Carolina play a unique and special role in the nomination process. We believe the DNC rules and its calendar provide the necessary structure to respect and honor that role; thus, we will be signing the pledge to adhere to the DNC- approved nominating calendar." That was the Clinton campaign in September.
Here is the Clinton campaign in February, "With regard to Michigan and Florida, our position is clear -- we are going to ask our delegates to vote to seat the delegations from Florida and Michigan. We do not think that many Americans should have had their votes and their voices and their preferences denied. We had an enormous turnout, particularly in Florida, the largest turnout in the history of the Democratic Party in Florida, and we believe it's critically important that those delegates have an opportunity to express their preferences at the convention. I don't believe that anyone seriously thinks we're going to have a national convention in which the delegates of Florida and Michigan are not going to have a say -- so that is our position."
Senator Durbin, your reaction?
SEN. DURBIN: Well, Michigan and Florida are critical for victory in November, there's no doubt about it, and Barack has said, at the end of the day, there's going to be an aggressive campaign to win the votes for the presidency for the Democratic candidate in those two states.
But, just like the superdelegate issue, we have to look carefully at what's happening here. The superdelegates should not be in a position to trump the elected delegates in Denver, and I hope that the Clinton campaign is not arguing that we should abandon an agreement that was reached by all of the presidential candidates to abide by the Democratic National Committee rules. Neither Chuck nor I nor any elected official would want our fate determined in an election where our name isn't on the ballot and where we weren't allowed to campaign. That's Michigan, and, of course, in Florida, none of the candidates campaigned.
So to say that the outcome of those elections, which Senator Clinton agreed would not be counted, will somehow be counted in Denver is to change the rules after the election. That isn't fair. We've got to find a fair way to seat delegates from Michigan and Florida that really keeps to the basic agreement that Senator Clinton, Senator Obama, and all the Democratic candidates entered into.
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MR. RUSSERT: One of the plans being proposed is that there be caucuses in Michigan and Florida where both Obama and Clinton could compete. Would you support that?
SEN. SCHUMER: Well, again, Barack has done better in caucuses, Hillary has done better in primaries, so I guess the Clinton campaign would say, "If we're going to have something, you have to have primaries." The problem there is Florida has a Republican governor and a Republican legislature, and they might not go in primaries.
Again, to say right now what should be done, I know you know this is -- the punditocracy loves this -- it's premature, and it's destructive for the Democratic Party where, you know, we have blown it before. You know, we thought we were going to win in 2000, we won the popular vote, we didn't have the president. We thought we were going to win in 2004 -- we are on the edge of victory here because Americans want change, and both Hillary and Barack represent change. To have these fights right now destroy the party, greatly weaken the party, makes no sense. Let's go through the election, let's go through the primaries, through to June 7th; I believe we'll have a clear winner. If we don't, you have to have not Chuck Schumer, not Dick Durbin, not some backroom group, but Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama sit down and come up with a way to solve this that each can buy into before the winner is chosen.
MR. RUSSERT: Senator Durbin, would you support a do-over, a new caucus or primary in Florida and Michigan where the candidates could compete?
SEN. DURBIN: Well, we certainly don't accept these elections because we agreed and Senator Clinton agreed that they wouldn't count. And so now to count them is fundamentally unfair and doesn't play by the rules that Senator Clinton and Senator Obama agreed to.
Now, the states of Michigan and Florida, as Chuck has described here, have their own set of challenges. When I asked the senators from Michigan, could we do a caucus? They say "No, we can't get that done." Well, they certainly are not going to have time to do a primary, I wouldn't think. So it really is a very difficult situation that's been created.
I do agree, and I think Senator Obama agrees with Chuck's premise -- at the end of the day, we should follow the principle of fairness, we should stick by the rules that were agreed to, we should respect the voters who turned out in record numbers in these Democratic caucuses and primaries. If, at the end of the day, it appears in Denver that something happened in a back room by the elite or the big shots or those well connected, that isn't any good for the Democratic Party, and for those of us who want to change the course of this nation like Senator Obama and Senator Clinton, we don't want that outcome in Denver.
SEN. SCHUMER: Here, here, we agree.
MR. RUSSERT: We have to leave it there -- Senator Schumer, Senator Durbin, you are roommates here in Washington?
SEN. DURBIN: That's true.
MR. RUSSERT: You are the odd couple?
SEN. DURBIN: Which is really true.
MR. RUSSERT: Which one is Felix and which one is Oscar?
SEN. DURBIN: If you mean who makes their bed, that's me.
(Laughter)
SEN. SCHUMER: He is the neat one but, Dick, I was at the house last night, you weren't there, I was lonely.
(Laughter)
MR. RUSSERT: We're going to leave it there.
SEN. DURBIN: Did you make your bed?
SEN. SCHUMER: No, Dick.
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