Hearing of the House Foreign Affairs Committee's International Organizations, Human Rights, and Oversight Subcommittee - Assurances on Torture

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Hearing of the House Foreign Affairs Committee's International Organizations, Human Rights, and Oversight Subcommittee - Assurances on Torture

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REP. GREGORY MEEKS (D-NY): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I'm just curios, I'm glad the chairman made that statement because I am concerned about what my government did or did not do. I am concerned in the answers and questionings that Mr. Carnahan was asking, for example, a statement that -- only thing that the Venezuelan government wants to do is to use whatever it is to embarrass the United States.

From my viewpoint, I want to know what was the United States involvement or not involvement. And if in fact, you know, when I look at the fact that obviously Mr. Posada had strong connections to the CIA. Well, I look at the fact that Mr. Posada then worked for them in Panama when I look at the fact that Mr. Posada then entered this country illegally and remains still.

In fact, we decided that he can stay here, knowing that there is a request for extradition that concerns me as to what our government is doing, particularly in light of the fact that right now we are very upset with another country Panama, because of it's -- chair of its national assembly is --though he was found innocent in a Panamanian court, he is still wanted here, and we are putting tremendous pressure on the Panamanian government to extradite that individual here.

I don't know -- and then, you know, I know the chairman referenced earlier the situation with a Canadian that we sent to Syria where we knew that there would be a torture. And I don't know, and maybe you can tell me any references of any immediate torture being given to Venezuelan prisoners under the jurisdiction of Mr. Chavez.

The fact of the matter is, you know, what -- you know, for me there was a coup de-etat attempt in Venezuela, it was not too long ago. And there were several individuals that were caught red handed.

And Mr. Chavez, to my knowledge, did not even torture those individuals who attempted a coup de-etat against him. So where is the evidence, when -- how would you say that if someone who is wanted in another country, and we do have an extradition agreement with them that a person should not go back simply because he is going to be tortured.

I don't know what the evidence is of torture in Venezuela. I know what the evidence is of torture in Syria, but yet we still do that. So I'm really befuddled by the actions of my government -- understanding that sometimes it is difficult dealing with Venezuela. I've had -- currently my difficulty dealing with the embassy of Venezuela.

But given all that, we're talking about Mr. Chavez, and what he has or has not done. And I don't see the evidence unless have something.

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MR. HERNANDEZ: Yes. A student was killed in one of the universities protesting the new constitutional amendments that would allow the elimination of term limits in the Venezuelan constitutions.

And what I see happening in Venezuela is that.

Now, as to your direct question, whether or not there is a direct connection between Venezuela and whether or not posing the question I could show here today that there is torture going on at Venezuela or not. No, I do not have a specific example that I can offer to you.

But I would validate and echo the conclusion of the immigration judge when he concluded that because of the symbiosis in government between Venezuela and the closeness of the alliance between Chavez and Castro, that I don't think anyone would disagree with this that certainly the Castro regime has a long and sordid history of torture.

And I have no doubt in my own mind, Congressman Meeks, that that opportunity would be presented to Castro with such a high profile defendant, such as my client, who is a former CIA agent.

REP. MEEKS: Well, you know -- and I agree -- I hear you but -- here are my concerns about my country. I can go -- and individuals are saying some of the same things that you said about us when they look at what is taking place in Guantanamo Bay, for example.

And there clearly seems to have been some sense of torture going on there in regards to us. And so, you know, I always look where we are criticizing or saying, we're not going to do something with our clean hands, and that's why I ask for the evidence on the other part.

I also look at, you know, based upon some of the same things as you've indicated here at our history, you know, being an African American in this country I can think in my lifetime where there were many, you know, from Black Panther Party or others that were talking and protesting the government, and our government infiltrated them and did certain things that I think that were uncalled for. And hopefully we corrected that, and we will correct it within the -- our own institutions.

You know, I find some fault with, quite frankly if you're just talking about the politics of Venezuela with the opposition there. They chose not to run for reelection et cetera.

I was there when there was recall elections. I saw people standing in lines voting for Hugo Chavez in lines longer than -- you know, I hadn't seen such since I saw Nelson Mandela being elected president of Venezuela, poor people, people who had never had the opportunities to hear any of their concerns previously. And so then when I look at the justice system the way it is, and I'm looking for torture. I mean, that's what I said give me -- if you have evidence of it, give it to me.

But if in fact there is a person that has been in prison, escaped from prison, some allege that he brought his way out of prison, and the country says, well, we just want justice to happen, and my estimation is in fact we would want the same thing for anybody that is accused of wrong doing in this country, we would want them extradited here I would think we have to live up to our commitments in the same way that we would want someone else to live up to theirs.

I yield back. You can answer the question, or anyone -- (cross talk.)

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