Hearing of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence- Congressional Oversight

Interview

Hearing of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence- Congressional Oversight

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SEN. RON WYDEN (D-OR): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

And one question for each of you that deal with concrete examples of what I think needs to be done for effective oversight.

I noted that in your 9/11 commission report, Chairman Hamilton, you said that the FBI had little appreciation for the role of intelligence analysis, and the FBI's information systems were woefully inadequate.

So, recently we had FBI senior officials up here and I said part of effective oversight means you go back and see what's been done to correct what your commission found. And so I had to go round and round with them, but finally we managed to pry out of these senior FBI officials that only two of the 24 senior intelligence analyst positions created by the Congress had been filled and that a very substantial portion of these analysts and agents at this point do not have access to the Internet at their desk.

So we've got a problem you found. We, doing our job in the oversight area, ask about it again. I'm planning to bulldog this until it gets corrected.

What's your sense about the next move?

MR. HAMILTON: The first observation would be if the principal role of the FBI is shifted from law enforcement to counterterrorism or domestic intelligence, the role of the analyst becomes critical, to the point where what the analyst does should drive the whole FBI.

Now, as you'll recognize, what I just said goes against the whole culture of the FBI because in the FBI, the special agent in charge is the king. He's the king of the hill. So you have to improve the quality, the expertise of the analyst if they're going to carry out this function of counterterrorism.

I'm not persuaded that that's happening in the FBI today. In other words, the law enforcement culture is so deeply engrained it's hard to change, and I recognized Chairman (sic) Mueller's making a heroic effort here.

Now part of that is the systems that you have identified. They do not yet have the tools to do the -- to get the information they need to be an effective analyst. And my sense of that, Senator Wyden, is that the FBI has just had huge management problems and they've not dealt with them effectively. I think they're dealing with them better than they did. You know the systems -- the problems they've had with their IT system.

So you're going to "bird dog" it. That's terrific. That's exactly what needs to be done. Somebody has to focus on the role of the analyst in the FBI and to make sure that the analyst has the information he or she needs in order to fight the war on terror.

And my belief is that's more of a management problem today than anything else for the FBI.

SEN. WYDEN: Let me see if I can get one other question in.

I want to ask my longtime friend, Tim Roemer.

I think, Mr. Roemer, you're probably aware of the news reports indicating that the director of the CIA has now ordered an internal investigation of the CIA inspector general. And I found this very troubling and going right to the heart, again, of the ability to do effective, you know, oversight.

The inspector generals, of course, are a key source of information for the Congress, number one. Number two, when the administration fights -- as Chairman Rockefeller has just noted -- to keep Congress in the dark, the inspector general, in effect, is the only independent oversight force out there. In other words, there isn't anybody else.

So I have asked Director McConnell to order General Hayden to suspend this internal investigation. I think it is a chilling development. I've been very pleased by the comments I've seen of the vice chairman on this. I know the chairman has been concerned about this.

What is your assessment of something like this, which I believe is without precedent and in my view probably the inspector general of the CIA is just about as important as any inspector general that's out there? I'd be interested in your reaction to this.

MR. ROEMER: Well, Senator, great to see you, and I applaud your good work on the Intelligence Committee.

Going back to your question on the FBI, the IG at the FBI -- a man by the name of Glenn Fine -- has done some exceptionally important work in overseeing some of the cultural problems, some of the management difficulties, some of the budget issues. And he has firmly focused the spotlight on those problems and exposed those problems, oftentimes to the chagrin of the FBI.

Back to your bird-dogging question, you know, how do we get more IGs to be in positions at the CIA, at the DIA, at NSA, at the various 15 other intelligence agencies in addition to the CIA? How do we make sure they're empowered with that same kind of line item authority and authority to go after issues and expose those issues?

I think the Senate bill, if I'm not mistaken, in the authorization process is looking at possibly confirming some of those people, having some more oversight over who goes into those positions. That might be a good role to begin with.

And it all comes back, I think, Senator -- and you perform this role exceedingly well -- it comes back to bird-dogging these issues and not letting up on them. Lee will be one of the first to tell you on the 9/11 commission we had very, very long, heated debates about what to do with the FBI. Do we let them go along the reform path that they've gone on with Mr. Mueller, who's a very, very capable and decent guy? Do we carve out a new national security role, or do we stand up a brand new MI5 agency? And many of us decided that standing up yet another new agency in addition to DNI and Department of Homeland Security was probably not the right way to go at this time.

So we said it was up to Congress to oversee this carve-out within FBI, that they and the president had to make sure that these reforms took place, and if they didn't oversee them with strong oversight, these information management systems, this e-mail system difficulty, the problems with the analysts will probably continue.

So I would continue to have exposure to these problems. I would build support like the Burr-Bond-Feingold-Bayh bill. And I would continue to try to get the changes and use money to do it at the end of the day if -- shift money from one account to the other on the appropriations subcommittee if you can't find any other way to do it.

MR. HAMILTON: Senator Wyden, every department head in government is nervous about the inspector general. And if a department head could investigate the inspector general, you will dramatically weaken the inspector general.

SEN. WYDEN: Lee Hamilton knocks it out of the park once more. That's why I'm asking Director McConnell -- and I see the vice chairman has come into the room as well. I was very appreciative of the vice chairman's comments when we learned that General Hayden was investigating the inspector general, Mr. Helgerson.

And the vice chairman's comments on this very much echo mine and yours, so there's bipartisan interest in it.

I thank you both for your public service.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

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