Hearing of the House Oversight Government Reform Committee's National Security Foreign Affairs Subcommittee - (Part II):Security in a Post 9/11 World

Interview

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REP. MICHAEL TURNER (R-OH): Thank you so much. Mr. Chairman, thank you for having this hearing.

And I also want to thank our two panel members for your efforts in bringing this report forward.

I think almost everybody upon reading this report will agree with the sort of sense that you've given of our current status, of where we are and the real importance of addressing it.

The how-to -- I appreciate your recommendations and also some of the focus that you've given. I note you indicate there's no silver bullet, so it -- as we look at these, it is one of those hard to define areas as to how do we move forward and how do we know that we're being successful.

One of the things that is recognized in your report that I find is a conflict in our view of how we're perceived internationally is that you acknowledge that America is still viewed as the land of opportunity, that people still look to us as an opportunity for them. And you go on then to say that as the land of opportunity that we must lead.

But I want to tell you a story. I recently was in Poland. And I was talking to a woman about the time when Poland was free of communism and had begun to set a new course. And I asked her to speak about it and speak about how exciting that must have been to get their country back and freedom and what the future held. And she said, "Well, I didn't think about it much at the time; I thought about 'Well, now I can go to America.'" And I thought that was interesting, because here I'm asking her to speak of her own nationalism and of the opportunities and her translation to freedom after all these years was, "And now I want to go to America."

How is it that we can be perceived so poorly but yet still be that symbol of where people want to go to when they think of their own freedom?

MR. NYE: Well, one of the interesting things about soft power, ability to attract, is that it grows out of our culture, out of our values and out of our policies. And when we ask people in public opinion polls why we've lost that attraction it tends to be disagreement with our policies, not with our values and culture. That's good news. Policies can change, values and cultures don't. The fact that the United States still is seen as a land of opportunity, a land of openness, means that a great deal of our soft power is produced by our civil society, not by the government.

And the great danger we have is to make sure that in response to terrorist incidents or other such things, that we don't cut ourselves off from that value of openness, that openness of opportunity. Others can come here. Others can study here. This is a land of opportunity. That's attractive to others.

If we get ourselves into a mentality of cutting back, no visas, no immigrants, no trade, that would be this example of jujitsu that I mentioned in which the terrorists are using our strength against ourselves. And your Polish woman's example is a perfect case of that.

MR. ARMITAGE: Congressman, I think that story makes me very proud. And it's indicative of the fact, I think, that most nations -- most -- really want us to be what Ronald Reagan would say, that shining city on the hill. But where the disappointment comes in is when our actions don't meet our words.

And then we introduce the possibility that we're living a double- standard or we're two-faced, et cetera. And that brings in this cynicism about us and our motives. And I think we ought to -- we're talking a lot about the low esteem we're -- in which we're held in some parts of the world. We ought to -- also ought to recognize that in places like the African continent, we're not in that bad a shape throughout the continent. And certainly in Asia, we're in somewhat better shape. So this is a mixed picture.

And I think we ought to look at what's going right in terms of public opinion in Asia and Africa and ask the questions of why -- one of the reasons in Africa is very clearly the PEPFAR initiatives on infectious diseases and HIV/AIDS. It's very well recognized, although the president doesn't get much credit for it.

REP. TURNER: China is another area -- if I might Mr. Chairman -- if you could comment on -- you recognize in your report the rise of China's influence through using of soft power and smart influence. Would you please comment on that for a moment?

MR. NYE: Well, China has been very adept in combining the rise of its hard power, seen in its economy and military investments, with soft power, which is a diplomacy, an investment in culture and efforts to present a smiling face to the rest of the world. That's a smart strategy. If you're a rising power, the last thing you want to do is create fear in other people to ally against you. You want to combine soft power with your hard power as a smart power.

And I -- China, as they said at their own 17th Party Congress a week or so ago, China realizes that soft power is in its interest.

REP. TURNER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

REP. TIERNEY: Thank you, Mr. Turner.

We have four votes that are coming up. The first one is a 15- minute vote. The subsequent ones are five minutes. We're going to run up as close as we can to the line. We promise to keep our word and have you gentlemen both out of here well before 4:00. So we'll run down and we'll vote -- it may take 25, 30 minutes and then come back if we can.

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