Hearing of the House Foreign Affairs Committee and the House Judiciary Committee, Panel I - Rendition to Torture: The Case of Maher Arar
Interview
Hearing of the House Foreign Affairs Committee and the House Judiciary Committee, Panel I - Rendition to Torture: The Case of Maher Arar
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REP. KEITH ELLISON (D-MN): Thank you, Mr. Chair and also let me thank both chairs of -- for convening this important hearing, and also thank both ranking members of the -- as well.
Mr. Arar, I guess my first question to you is you've said you'd like to know why the United States might have transferred you to Syria as opposed to back to Canada. I think that really is a good question because the United States has sanctions against Syria and there's a lot of political dialogue around here quite critical of Syria. So I guess I'm curious to know why, since we seem to be in somewhat of an unfriendly posture with regard to Syria -- why they would feel the spirit of cooperation with respect to you. Could you share your views on that subject if you understand my question?
MR. ARAR: Whether -- why Syria cooperated with the U.S. on --
REP. ELLISON: No, why would the United States -- why would the U.S. feel -- cooperate with Syria on this issue with regard to you but not be in a posture of cooperation in so many other areas? Do you understand? If you don't know, that's fine --
MR. ARAR: I really believe this is better question to ask of the officials who took the decision to send me to Syria.
REP. ELLISON: I think you're right about that.
MR. ARAR: You're asking me to speculate. I really don't know whether it's the political situation or other things. But I think this is the best question you can ask to the -- not only the day-to- day officers who took the decision, but the attorney general and whoever signed on the actual removal order. Why did they decide to send me there and not to Canada?
REP. ELLISON: That's, I think, something we'd all like to know.
MR. ARAR: But let me add one thing. If you look at the -- at my case in isolation of other cases, probably it's hard to try to find what the reason behind that would be. But if you look at other cases where people have been rendered not only to Syria but to other countries like Morocco and others, it clearly establishes a pattern where people are sent there for the actual purpose of torture. Normally using torture on United States soil would not -- is illegal and out of the so many public cases we have heard, most of those people who have been rendered have in fact been tortured.
REP. ELLISON: Mr. Arar, I may ask you other questions that would probably best be directed to other parties, but I do appreciate and thank you for your effort to try to shed some light.
And so another question you may or may not have the answer to, but I'm curious to ask you -- are there other people who are currently being rendered in other countries with the participation of the United States? I mean, today if we look at your case in isolation, we're all apologetic for what happened to you. I certainly am. But are there other outstanding cases such as yours right now, or have we -- or is this the end of it?
MR. ARAR: Just days ago, the famous Stephen Grey -- a journalist in -- the British journalist, he published an article in which he claimed that those rendition flights are still ongoing. We have heard testimony -- previous U.S. officials that the -- and I'm referring here to Mr. George Tenet that there were hundreds -- 70 or more of those cases. But thanks to the efforts of those journalists, we are learning that not only 70, but maybe hundreds of those people have been rendered to secret locations in some cases.
REP. ELLISON: And so I join with my colleagues and offered a heartfelt apology to you, but I also have to thank you for doing more than simply sitting quiet and shutting up. I mean, the fact that you're continuing to bring light to this is doing a great service for many other people. Let me also ask you this. There's a gentleman who was in Guantanamo Bay. His name is Sami al-Haj. He's a former Al- Jazeera journalist. I can't say what he did or didn't do, but there are other people who've reviewed his case carefully and seem to think that he's done never -- done nothing more than be a journalist. And my question is, do you know of other -- are you aware of other people who are in custody whose cases need to be brought to light?
MR. ARAR: Well, all I know about those people are -- is through the media, frankly --
REP. ELLISON: Yeah. Me, too.
MR. ARAR: -- you know, articles in the New York Times, Washington Post and others. I personally don't know about other cases. I can tell when I was in Syria, though, in one of those cells there was a gentleman by the name of Haydar Zammar, who I learned -- later learned his story. He was in effect rendered from -- who also -- he's a German -- a Syrian-born German who was rendered from Morocco to Syria apparently with the cooperation with the CIA. I don't know what happened to him recently. I heard he completely disappeared.
REP. ELLISON: Mr. Arar --
MR. ARAR: This is another case.
REP. ELLISON: Mr. Arar, another question I have is that -- you know, as members of the United States Congress, it is our sworn duty to defend the national security of America. And so my question to you is in that light. Does it make our job to defend our country more difficult when the -- when news of renditions go around the world? When news about your case and others proliferate around the world, does America win friends or win enemies?
MR. ARAR: Well, let me say first of all that the United States as a sovereign country has the full right to defend itself against acts of aggression and terrorism.
REP. ELLISON: Absolutely.
MR. ARAR: But I really believe this should done within the boundaries of law, whether it's domestic law or international law.
And what kind of lesson are we sending to third-world countries if we, as governments in the West, we don't abide by our own laws, and on the other hand, we are asking them to become democratic? I think it damages the credibility of the United States, there's no doubt about that. Any reasonable person would tell you that.
REP.ELLISON: Well, let me ask you this, there are people out there -- who my colleague from California pointed out properly, who are, who are killers and terrorists and who murdered Americans in 2001. That is a fact; that did happen. But my question is, are we in some way giving these people propaganda to use against us when we allow -- when these renditions are allowed to go forward? Are we giving people who would harm us ammunition to recruit against us? Do you have any views you'd like to share on that?
MR. ARAR: Well, as I said, you know, the more you abide by the law, the more respect you get from your enemies as well as your friends -- most important from your friends. And, you know, I reiterate say that we, you know, there's the technical aspect of things, but there's also the human side of things. What do we tell the kids, and the children of the person who is rendered for torture, a generation or two from now what will happen? How will the United States government, and consequence people, will be viewed -- will they still be respected as they used to be?
REP. ELLISON: Mr. Arar, let me also ask you, we have American soldiers who we hold very dear, they're very precious to us in our country. But when the message goes out that we participate in torture or engage in rendition, do we put those soldiers at risk? Can other people try to justify torture of, perhaps, our own precious soldiers when we engage in this kind of behavior?
MR. ARAR: Well, if you -- if you blame others for using torture and being cruel to innocent people, I mean, they will point the fingers back at you and say, listen, you've also tortured innocent people. So that's very important to put in mind.
REP. ELLISON: And finally, my final question is --
REP. DELAHUNT: Could the gentleman yield for a moment, because the ranking member has to leave at 4:00, and I'll go back to you --
REP. ELLISON: Certainly -- certainly, I'd be happy to yield for the ranking member.
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REP. ELLISON: Yes.
I would like to just -- (well, now ?), Mr. Chair, I appreciate you yielding back to me. I am grateful for you calling this hearing.
I do have a 4:00 appointment myself. I tried to graciously yield to the ranking member and it didn't work out so well, but my point -- I guess trying to get back to the line of questions that I was asking before -- is -- Mr. Arar, I was asking you about other pending cases that might be in existence because, of course (as ?) important as it is for us to apologize to you, I'm also concerned about existing cases.
Mr. Roach, are you aware of other cases that may -- where there might -- people may have been rendered with the participation of our government, whether they be in Guantanamo Bay or Canada or other parts of the world? Any individuals that you could share us -- information with us about?
MR. ROACH: Like Mr. Arar, I rely mainly on media reports of these. There have been media reports and I really think that that's a matter for American officials to undertake and try to do a thorough investigation as we tried to do a through investigation of Canadian officials. I should add that on the torture issue, Justice O'Connor's findings were that it came as a surprise to Canadian officials that Mr. Arar was being sent to Syria. So although a commission of inquiry in Canada doesn't have jurisdiction to determine criminal law, I think it is important for you to know that Canadian officials did not know that Mr. Arar was going to be sent to Syria.
REP. ELLISON: (Cross talk.) Mr. Roach, going back to a question asked earlier by Mr. Arar, why in your view was Syria's the location that Mr. Arar was sent to as opposed to Canada?
MR. ROACH: Well, obviously there's a degree of speculation, but it is clear that on October the fifth, an RCMP officer told an FBI officer that if Mr. Arar was returned to Canada -- which was where he requested -- he would not be arrested and he would admitted to the country. So I think that may be part of the puzzle, but there's many pieces that are really left for you to discover.
REP. ELLISON: And Mr. Roach, let me also ask in your view, how does torture impact the American image in standing abroad? I mean, people have -- obviously have studied this case. We're not the only people who know about it. How does -- how do cases like Mr. Arar's case shape our image abroad?
MR. ROACH: Well, I mean -- I -- it gives dictatorships excuses. If the United States in involved, dictatorships are more than happy to point to the American example or the Canadian example, or the British example.
I also would just add, though -- and this goes to the issue of torture of a terrorist suspect -- all civilized justice systems will not admit confessions that are coerced. I mean, this is very, very old law that we just have never trusted the reliability of a confession that was obtained through torture. And during our inquiry, we heard from an American expert, a leading expert, Professor Afshi (sp), on false confessions, and it really does confirm that when people are being tortured, there is a very real possibility that they will say whatever they think will stop the torture. And so not only does it demean the image of democracies but it may make it impossible to prosecute people who are actually terrorists. So I --
REP. ELLISON: Attorney Roach, I just have one more question I want to ask you. Of course, this has been a tremendous afternoon.
I want to, again, thank the chairman.
But my question is, what is the relationship between national security and the image of the nation abroad? For example, if our nation has suffered a loss of standing in the world, does that impact our national security? Particularly if some people are allowed, through certain events, to whip up anti-American sentiment, how does our national security get impacted by a poor standing in the world and the association with terrorism -- I mean, torture?
MR. ROACH: Right, no, I mean your 9/11 commission report made what I think is a very compelling case that the United States needs to win hearts and minds and needs to show that it is committed to justice and democracy.
REP. ELLISON: Thank you.
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