MSNBC "Tucker" - Transcript

Interview

MR. CARLSON: He promised a campaign based on hope, but now that Senator Barack Obama is over 20 points behind Hillary Clinton in virtually all the polls, he doesn't sound as hopeful. He sounds a little nastier. He's been attacking Mrs. Clinton on everything from her vote on Iran to the possibility of Bill Clinton back in the White House. Obama is sharpening his rhetoric. He also sent an e-mail to supporters urging them to close the gap with Clinton. That worked so well, he was able to raise almost a million dollars since just yesterday morning.

Here to shed some more light on Obama's apparently new campaign is key Obama supporter Adam Smith, a Democratic congressman from the state of Washington.

Congressman, thanks for coming on.

REP. SMITH: Thanks for having me, Tucker. I appreciate the chance.

MR. CARLSON: Just for our viewers who haven't been following this as closely, I want to play a sound bite from Senator Obama in Iowa recently talking about the Clintons. Here he is.

SEN. BARACK OBAMA (D-IL): (From videotape.) There's safety there, because it's a known commodity. They've been around for a long time, with Bill there. We kind of know what we're going to get. But that's exactly the problem. We know what we're going to get. We're not going to get significant change. I believe I can deliver a message that Senator Clinton can't.

MR. CARLSON: There's really no way to argue with what Obama says. It's absolutely defensible and correct on every level.

REP. SMITH: Absolutely.

MR. CARLSON: But I'm not a partisan primary-voting Democrat. I wouldn't vote for Bill Clinton. A lot of Democrats in the primaries love Bill Clinton.

REP. SMITH: Hillary Clinton, by the way, Tucker.

MR. CARLSON: Hillary. I mean, I'm just saying, why is he -- attacking the legacy of Bill Clinton doesn't get you far in a Democratic primary, does it?

REP. SMITH: Well, I think what he's saying is that this election should be about the future, not about the past. He's not so much attacking the legacy. I mean, that was fine. From '92 to 2000, I think Bill Clinton did a lot of very good things. That was a while ago. This election should be about the future. Who can make the changes necessary in this country right now that Democrats and independents and a lot of Republicans desperately want?

That's Senator Obama's message. He is the one who can bring change now. Yes, you know, 15 years ago, when Bill and Hillary and others were campaigning in '92, they were clearly the agents of change. But that was then; this is now. And I think Senator Obama is making the case that he is the agent of change who will move us forward instead of focusing on the past. And I think that's a very good argument.

MR. CARLSON: Oh, I think it's a great argument. And yet every time he makes that argument or says anything even mildly or implicitly critical of the Clintons, the Clinton campaign comes back and says, "Oh, there you go again. I thought this was the campaign of hope."

REP. SMITH: But they're wrong about that, because --

MR. CARLSON: But wasn't it foolish to set that up as a standard in the first place? Didn't Obama hedge himself in by talking all this nonsense about hope?

REP. SMITH: Here's what happened. Senator Obama very correctly said he's going to run a different campaign. He is going to talk about hope. He is going to talk about change. He is going to focus on bipartisan issues as opposed to partisan attacks. He never said, "I'm not going to explain why I'm better than the other candidates." He never said, "I'm not going to say anything critical of the other candidates." The media has sort of created this fiction that when you talk about running a hopeful campaign, you somehow can't ever say anything about the opponents that you're running against.

Now, if Senator Obama was doing a swiftboat-like attack or doing some vicious character assassination, then you'd have a point. But he's not. He's drawing a very clear, as you yourself said, inarguable distinction.

MR. CARLSON: And yet, in the latest Gallup poll, Senator Clinton's approval numbers have gone up. Her favorable rating has gone up. And for the second time in a row, Obama's has gone down. And I wonder if that's not a reflection of voter reaction to his more negative attacks.

REP. SMITH: I think it's really hard to tell on a national poll, nationally, as you and I have talked about before. I mean, we're obsessed with this stuff. You know, you follow every little in and out of the campaign. Most voters don't. I don't think national polls in the presidential race mean much. I mean, you can look at Iowa, you can look at New Hampshire, and you can see those numbers where people are paying a little bit more attention. But still, even then, we're still three months away from the first contest.

MR. CARLSON: The other day Senator Obama said in a Greenville, South Carolina church, he said, "I am confident we can create a kingdom right here on earth. I want all of you to pray that I can be an instrument of God."

Do you believe Senator Obama is an instrument of God?

REP. SMITH: I believe we are all instruments of God, Tucker. I believe we are all down here with a purpose. And I think that's what Senator Obama was saying. He wasn't saying that he had some special relationship as opposed to anybody else; that he believes in a purpose here on earth that he is fulfilling in his own way.

MR. CARLSON: What would his kingdom look like, the one he's going to be building here on earth? What kind of kingdom do you think he wants to build?

REP. SMITH: Well, I think he wants to create more opportunity, more equality in this country. I think he wants to make sure that people have access to the basics of life so that they can achieve their own personal goals to the greatest possible extent. And then he believes there's a lot of work we have to do on that in America right now to create more opportunity, particularly when you focus on economics, health care, jobs, issues like that. I think he wants to give people that better life, full of opportunity, and a government that makes that happen.

MR. CARLSON: The other day on Fox, former Mayor Giuliani said this: "I don't know Hillary's experience. She's never run a city. She's never run a state. She's never run a business. She's never met a payroll. She's never been responsible for safety and security of people, much less hundreds of people. I'm trying to figure out where her experience is here."

Why doesn't Barack Obama make that point, that she's been able to get away with the notion that she's the candidate of experience, but she's not? Why doesn't he say that?

REP. SMITH: Well, first of all, I've got to point out, I find it ironic that Rudy Giuliani, the mayor of New York, who's running as this foreign policy expert, is complaining about somebody else not having experience. I think that's a rather ironic argument for him to be making.

MR. CARLSON: You may be right.

REP. SMITH: But Senator Obama isn't just going to pick whatever to attack Hillary on. He is saying, "Here's the difference. I can bring about change. I can work in a more bipartisan fashion. I can break some of the gridlock in Washington, D.C." Senator Clinton really can't, given the history.

And Senator Obama is not just going to grab whatever charge out there and throw it up against the wall and see if it sticks. He's running on a clear message, and he's going to stick to that message when he's talking about himself and when he's talking about what makes him better than the other candidates in this race.

MR. CARLSON: All right, Congressman Adam Smith. As one instrument of God to another, I want to thank you, Congressman. I appreciate it.

REP. SMITH: Thank you, Tucker.

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