Hearing of the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee - Assessing the State of Iraqi Corruption
Interview
Hearing of the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee - Assessing the State of Iraqi Corruption
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REP. DARRELL E. ISSA (R-CA): Thank you.
Judge, I commend you for your diligence at great personal risk. I think that Ranking Member Davis said it very well, that we're not surprised that a country that was run by a corrupt dictator who doled out monies in order to maintain power would have a pattern of corruption. How much of the corruption, in your opinion, do you believe comes from that legacy of Saddam and how corruption was part of the structure of maintaining authority and power?
MR. AL-RADHI: (Through interpreter.) Corruption is corruption, whether it was under Saddam's regime or under the current government. Corruption is bad, and it is undermining my country.
REP. ISSA: Thank you. I'm going to call your attention to a letter, but while it's being brought up, I want to ask, are you aware that there are about 750,000 Iraqi refugees in Jordan at this time --
MR. AL-RADHI: (Through interpreter.) Yes.
REP. ISSA: -- and probably another 500,000 or more in Syria? Is that your understanding?
MR. AL-RADHI: (Through interpreter.) Yes, sure.
REP. ISSA: And to your understanding, in both of those countries, in general, are Iraqis safe when they're living there?
MR. AL-RADHI: (Through interpreter.) It is better than the daily killing that takes place in their original country.
REP. ISSA: I appreciate that. Well, I want to call your letter -- your attention, Judge, to a letter written on September 20 to the U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Service concerning your family and their welfare, naming some nine members of your family.
Are -- have you seen this letter before?
MR. AL-RADHI: (Through interpreter.) Yes, this is a private matter, and I do not wish to talk about it, specially that my family is subject to private circumstances.
REP. ISSA: Now, I certainly understand that, but in order to understand the workings of this committee I think it's important that we ask some very limited questions, and we're not going to name any names other than to note that the letter is signed by Chairman Waxman, Chairman Lantos, Chairman Conyers and Chairman Thompson -- Benny Thompson -- the chairmans (sic) of Homeland Security, House Judiciary, House Government Oversight and Reform and the Foreign Affairs Committee.
REP. WAXMAN: The gentleman's time has expired. Is there a question that's pending?
REP. ISSA: Yes, very -- very briefly.
When -- when were you first involved in the request for this letter to ask that your -- your family, your entire family, be brought to the United States as a refugee, and particularly was that --
REP. WAXMAN: Well, I'm going to --
REP. ISSA: -- was that prior to or after you came here under a diplomatic visa?
MR. AL-RADHI: (Through interpreter.) I came to the United States under the auspices of the U.S. Department of Justice on a workshop, on a training workshop, along with 10 of my employees. And the prime minister, to get rid of me, so I don't return to my country, has put forth this issue, this issue of prosecuting me and persecuting me.
REP. WAXMAN: Gentlemen -- oh, excuse me, please. If you have more to say --
MR. AL-RADHI: (Through interpreter.) I love my family. I love my country. I love to serve my country. However, these threats have been an obstacle for me.
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REP. ISSA: The gentleman yields his time to me, I guess.
A couple of quick questions.
Mr. Bowen, has the -- has the Iraqi government under -- at any time given us authority -- the United States executive branch or the Congress -- authority over corruption of the use of Iraqi funds?
MR. BOWEN: This --
REP. ISSA: Have we asked Iraq to allow us to investigate the use of their funds?
MR. BOWEN: No.
REP. ISSA: Okay, so we've never asked.
MR. BOWEN: No, sir.
REP. ISSA: Have we ever asked any government whether we could investigate the corruption in their government, to your knowledge?
MR. BOWEN: Not to my knowledge.
REP. ISSA: Okay. Is it unusual for the U.S. Congress to investigate a sovereign nation's utilization of their own resources, in your experience?
MR. BOWEN: This is the first time I've been at a hearing on that matter.
REP. ISSA: Okay. Do you think it's appropriate, in your own judgment?
MR. BOWEN: I think addressing the -- assessing the state of Iraqi corruption is an appropriate topic for oversight and review because it amounts to an economic undermining of this fledgling democracy. Corruption is the abuse of public office for private gain, and it has occurred on a large scale in Iraq.
REP. ISSA: I appreciate that. You know, the question really isn't do we analyze it? The question is what do we do about it after we all agree on this dais that it was rampant under Saddam and it's rampant under Maliki and that in fact it goes far, far, far down? It doesn't flow just to the top the way it once did, where it was -- you only stole with the permission of the top. You now -- you have little fiefdoms that are stealing all along.
I guess has the -- I guess one of my questions, has the GAO ever investigated another sovereign nation's utilization of its resources?
MR. BOWEN: No, the only thing that would be close is you recall the Coalition Provisional Authority was set up by the United States. The Coalition Provisional Authority had access to both U.S. funds as well as Iraqi funds.
REP. ISSA: Sure. And you oversaw, or your organization oversaw, how we spent their funds while we were in control of them.
MR. BOWEN: Actually not. What we did was we were involved in expenditure of U.S. funds, and we facilitated the release of records from the U.S. government to the Board of Supreme Audit of Iraq so that they could hopefully do the audit work with regard to Iraqi funds. So we have not audited Iraqi funds, but we have facilitated the Board of Supreme Audit hopefully being able to do the same.
REP. ISSA: Okay. Well, so that the record be complete on one thing, I don't -- I know you're not going to find one person on the dais under any circumstances that is satisfied with the level of integrity, transparency or a lack of corruption in Iraq. That's something that from the chairman going both directions on the dais, it's very clear that this is not a government that works to the best interest of their people, particularly if they're Sunnis in Anbar or Kurds in the north.
Mr. Bowen, in your written testimony you state the number of corruption cases under investigation by the Iraq Commission on Public Integrity was 1,861 in 2006 and 3,158 in 2007. Can you describe essentially how we got to this increase? I mean, it looks good on paper. Tell me about it.
MR. BOWEN: Well, there's -- one is an increased effort under Judge Radhi's leadership to push forward -- try to push back the tide of corruption that has been rising, as he's testified today. It's also indicative of that rising tide itself that the corruption efforts have increased -- I mean, because the work is to be done. But as we've --
REP. ISSA: Okay. To your --
MR. BOWEN: -- as we've also --
REP. ISSA: I appreciate that. To your knowledge, how many convictions have there been in Iraq?
MR. BOWEN: I don't know what the total number is. There have been hundreds of convictions.
REP. ISSA: Okay. So there -- they do get convictions, and --
MR. BOWEN: Yes.
REP. ISSA: -- what is the typical penalty when convicted? I mean, are they the equivalent of a U.S. felony conviction?
MR. BOWEN: It depends on the nature of the crime, of course.
The challenge in Iraq, especially with the ministries, is that there is selective prosecution because there is by fiat the authority with every minister to protect any ministry employee from any corruption investigation. And so I'm aware of some cases wherein most of the defendants were protected under Article 136(b) but one of the lower level ones was permitted to be prosecuted and imprisoned because of their sectarian identity.
REP. ISSA: Always please your boss, I guess, is the rule in Iraq.
Judge, one question I have for you is, when did you decide that you needed to leave Iraq and get your family out of Iraq for -- to a permanent place such as the United States for safety?
MR. AL-RADHI: (Through interpreter.) For two years there were continuous threats, and I did send letters and petitions to the parliament about this issue of threats. And then they started hitting my residence with missiles. Then it has become very difficult for me.
REP. ISSA: I only wanted -- I only wanted a date, if that could be provided, just a calendar date, if possible, for the decision.
REP. WAXMAN: You can submit it for the record if you don't recall a date at the moment.
MR. AL-RADHI: (Through interpreter.) I decided only when the prime minister warned me through an interview on Al-Iraqiyah.
REP. ISSA: And the date?
MR. AL-RADHI: (Through interpreter.) At the beginning of September this year.
REP. ISSA: Thank you.
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REP. ISSA: Yeah, I'm going to be -- be very brief. This is -- believe it or not, this is my first round, but it's a way -- if enough people yield to you it seems like you've been here forever.
I just wanted to follow up on a question that I asked earlier, and I asked the question for a reason. We are putting in $6 billion a month into the -- into Iraq. By anyone's rounding error, it's greater or it's less, it's huge. As that -- as that huge amount of money -- approaching a trillion dollars -- that's been spent in this theater so far, why wouldn't we treat -- and this is for General Walker first, and then for Mr. Bowen -- why wouldn't we treat Iraq -- oversight of their corruption and of their use of their funds -- as we treated the Marcos government, as we dealt with the post-Soviet Russian period, as we've dealt with Colombia and other countries in which drug money has an adverse influence? Why wouldn't this committee look at it in terms of the leverage of U.S. money? And I ask that because, although I don't believe we've yet made the case, I hope by the time we adjourn in a few minutes that we will have made the case that in fact this committee, in both an unclassified, and with the chairman's indulgence, hopefully in a classified setting, should be learning much more than any one individual can tell us.
But I'd go to General Walker first. In your opinion, your experience, is it appropriate for us to have oversight over the billions of dollars being spent of U.S. dollars and not see the effects of the other dollars? Because I would presume that for every dollar that we don't spend the Iraqis would have to find a way to come up, in many cases, with those dollars. And for every dollar we contribute we relieve their obligation to use their oil money wisely. General Walker?
MR. WALKER: Well, first, I think this committee has a responsibility to aggressively oversee expenditure of U.S. funds, especially when it deals with contracting and other related activities in Iraq. Secondly, I believe that in general terms it's not the U.S. government's responsibility, nor is it appropriate, for us to investigate Iraqi sovereign money. However, I do believe it's in the interest of this committee, the Congress and our country to understand the nature and extent of corruption overall and to what extent does that undermine the ability of the Iraqi government to deliver on its promises with regard to funding and the ability of the Iraqi government to meet the 18 benchmarks that are necessary in order to achieve quote-unquote "success."
REP. ISSA: Right. And the second part of the question, in your opinion, would that require a follow-up in a classified setting for this committee to fully understand some of what you and the State Department and other sources could give us?
MR. WALKER: I clearly think it's in the committee's interest to obtain access to as much information as possible. And to the extent that there's information available that's classified, then I would encourage you to avail yourself of that classified information, as I did in connection with the Iraqi 18 benchmark report that we issued.
REP. ISSA: Okay.
Mr. Bowen?
MR. BOWEN: Yes, Mr. Issa, the classified hearing makes sense, since those reports are now classified. And I've read them. And they are full of details about corruption within the Iraqi ministries, specifically cases -- case details. So I think that'd be useful for the committee.
As to the first part of your question, the United States has enormous interest in the success of democracy in Iraq, clearly. The Iraqi corruption, by the Iraqi government's own admission, threatens that state today. The -- this Coalition Provisional Authority, a -- essentially a U.S. entity -- created two-thirds of the Iraqi anti- corruption effort -- the CPI, which Judge Radhi headed for the last three years, and the Iraqi inspectors general -- and by creating them took on the burden to build their capacity -- they were new entities -- did not sustain that burden, as our audits have shown, either through effective strategic planning or appropriate funding.
The way ahead, implicit in your question on that front, I think is engaging those with expertise in the issues you alluded to -- international corruption and the fight against it -- and that's the World Bank. They have two people in Iraq right now. I met with them in August. They have good ideas. They have no capacity themselves to address the issue. They need to lean forward and deploy. And more broadly other United Nations efforts, UNAMI, needs to engage, needs to be a presence. Ultimately, as with everything in Iraq, multilateralizing the solution will improve the likelihood of success of this fledgling democracy.
REP. ISSA: Thank you.
And Judge, just in closing, I want to thank you for your courageous work over the last several years. Hopefully you understand that even though tough questions are always asked by this Congress, it is with great appreciation for the work that you have done in Iraq on behalf of your country.
I yield back, Mr. Chairman.
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REP. ISSA: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
You know, the line of questioning is one that I think would be inappropriate to let -- let go of. You do publish -- I'm -- a leading question, but you do publish, or do you publish, as you do with Egypt and other countries, an annual report on Iraq, including its transparency in corruption?
MR. BUTLER: We publish quarterly reports that we submit to the Congress, and 2207, I think, is the --
REP. ISSA: Have those been provided to the committee?
MR. BUTLER: Those have been provided to the committee.
REP. ISSA: And fully vetted, do those or do those not say -- about many countries, and I've worked the Egyptian desk, so to speak, so I've read those every year, along with all the other areas of the Levant -- Iraq in that report looks better or worse than Egypt or other countries in the Levant -- other Arab countries?
MR. BUTLER: The 2207 report is very specific to Iraq, and I would not be able to draw comparisons to other countries.
REP. ISSA: Does it look pretty bad? Does it look like in fact that you have a corrupt government in that report?
MR. BUTLER: I cannot recall -- in the 2207 report I don't think we get very much into the specifics of -- of corruption.
REP. ISSA: Okay. So do you think there should be a report that talks about a direction, improvement or dropping off in the level of transparency and/or corruption in Iraq?
MR. BUTLER: The embassy, under the direction of Ambassador Crocker, has -- is focused, and will continue to be focused, on dealing with the issues involving corruption in Iraq. We've stipulated there is corruption in Iraq. How to measure it I don't know. This is a country that's undergoing violence. It's difficult to figure out what are your definitions of --
REP. ISSA: Well, you mentioned the post-Soviet period, hmm? Does it look a lot like Russia did?
MR. BUTLER: It looks very -- many aspects of that do look similar.
REP. ISSA: Okay. So in a post-dictatorship period, a post- organization period, an emerging democracy with privatization, with systems that were previously subsidized in one way that are not being subsidized the same way now, it -- to you, only wanting your opinion -- is it not surprising -- even if we didn't have the violence, even if we didn't have the insurgency -- that this is in fact pretty close to a basket case as far as legitimacy of the institutions of government in delivering services?
MR. BUTLER: I don't -- would not -- would not associate myself with an assessment of close to a basket case. The government of Iraq is in the -- in the ongoing process of a revolution of creating a government in a -- in a democracy where one did not exist before. As a --
REP. ISSA: Is it better than the mid-'90s in Russia?
MR. BUTLER: Hard to make comparisons --
REP. ISSA: Does it look reminiscent of the mid-'90s in Russia?
MR. BUTLER: In some areas, there are many -- there are many similarities.
REP. ISSA: Okay. What is Maliki doing, as far as you know, or key ministers of his, to fight corruption that you can say is being effective?
MR. BUTLER: During the 18 months that Prime Minister Maliki and his government have been in power -- and that's I think a key -- key number to keep -- to focus on -- it's only been 18 months -- he inherited the Commission on Public Integrity as well as the Board of Supreme Audit that were established prior to -- prior to him assuming power. Becoming the first democratically elected prime minister of Iraq -- (off mike) -- 2003, he created the Joint Anti-Corruption Council in May 2007. The prime minister has provided crucial support to the JACC's creation, which is an Iraqi solution to an Iraqi problem.
Part of the Joint Anti-Corruption Council's agenda is to formulate recommendations, and this is one of the areas that I know came up earlier today, and this has to do with Paragraph 136(b) of the Iraq Criminal Procedures Code -- that's on their agenda to deal with. They -- they're also working with the inspector generals to create an association -- they've created an association to coordinate strategic goals --
REP. ISSA: Okay. My time is going to run out, and I appreciate the long list, but let me just ask one question. The president has openly said that he's -- I'll use -- I'll characterize "disappointed" in this government's movement toward passing certain almost universally agreed on need for reforms, such as carbon sharing, such as these corruption laws. To the extent that they're on the agenda, you get no points. Do you see the likelihood that in a timely fashion they're going to be passed and enforced? I want your opinion, your assessment on that.
MR. BUTLER: I would need to take the -- the so-called benchmark legislation, which doesn't include anti-corruption measures specifically, but they're all built in there -- Ambassador Crocker, working with Prime Minister Maliki, continues to work towards achieving the legislative goals.
In the meantime, two things I'd like to throw out there is that Prime Minister Maliki did something back in March which dramatically improved one aspect where there had been corruption, and he put the Iraqi army around the Baiji refinery, which --
REP. ISSA: He started watching the oil.
MR. BUTLER: He started watching the refined oil, specifically, which was literally going out the front and back gate and was ending up in the black market.
The second thing the prime minister did -- and I think this is an important point -- was followed an IMF recommendation to, on two occasions, increase the price of fuel in Iraq, which reduced the disparity between the black market price and the street price, which has taken a huge bite out of the black market. Some of that money was going into criminal networks. Some of it was going to feed the insurgency.
These were very important steps to drain the swamp that -- where insurgents and organized crime are operating.
REP. WAXMAN: The gentleman's --
REP. ISSA: Thank you.
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