Hearing of the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee - Blackwater USA's Iraq Mission
Interview
Hearing of the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee - Blackwater USA's Iraq Mission
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REP. JAN SCHAKOWSKY (D-IL): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I would think that the State Department is very concerned on whether or not these private contractors -- security contractors are actually helping us achieve our mission; that is, whether they're helping to win hearts and minds or exactly the opposite. And so what we're seeing is that these -- that this isn't a benign function, all these various incidents. Aren't they making the job harder?
For example, after the Fallujah -- four were humiliated and killed in Fallujah, we have the battle of Fallujah, where a number of our forces who participated, a large number, were killed there. The latest incident that we had has enraged the Iraqis, but also shut down the Green Zone, essentially, so that our diplomats couldn't leave for a certain period of time.
And I'm just very concerned that all of these things have been virtually ignored. And in fact, when it comes to Blackwater, the position that seems to be taken with a number of different quotes of e-mails and memos has been, "Let's just pay people off and put this incident behind us." And I could go back and quote all these various things, but I think you've probably been here and heard that.
I'm concerned that you're allowing these private contractors to hurt our mission in Iraq. And I want -- like a comment.
MR. PRINCE: If I may, David. Again, realizing the environment that we're operating in in Iraq, just this calendar year, Blackwater has been involved in 3,073 missions -- protective missions -- on behalf of the State Department. Let me correct myself. There have been 3,073 countrywide missions by the three -- by the three contractors --
REP. SCHAKOWSKY: I heard all that. That's the Blackwater talking point --
MR. PRINCE: No, but --
REP. SCHAKOWSKY: -- I have heard those.
MR. PRINCE: No, this is DS talking point. The reality is this year, there have been 6,000 attacks per month going on in Iraq. That is the environment that they're trying to perform the protective mission in -- 6,000 attacks per month.
REP. SCHAKOWSKY: And I'm not questioning the level of violence in Iraq. I'm asking -- and I can -- I'll move on.
I guess, in some ways, I was commenting that these private security guards who were unclear on they're -- what kind of oversight we can exert and what you can exert have been damaging our mission in Iraq. So let me proceed to that.
Under CPA, the Coalition Provisional Authority Order 17, contractors have immunity from the Iraq legal system. I heard you say, Ambassador Satterfield, that you were going to review -- this is now four years later -- the effect of CPA Order 17. Don't you think there's prima facie evidence, since only two contractors that I know of have been prosecuted in any way that we are insufficiently providing oversight?
MR. SATTERFIELD: Congresswoman, CPA Order 17 --
REP. SCHAKOWSKY: Deals with Iraqi law.
MR. SATTERFIELD: -- which is part of Iraqi law --
REP. SCHAKOWSKY: Right.
MR. SATTERFIELD: -- provides immunities not just for security contractors, but for our armed forces in Iraq, for diplomatic personnel of all diplomatic and consular missions, not just that of the United States in Iraq, and for contractors associated with them. It is a very broad measure.
REP. SCHAKOWSKY: And does this still apply to everyone -- they're not subject to Iraqi law at all?
MR. SATTERFIELD: CPA Order 17 provides immunities for those classes of individuals, military and civilian, diplomatic and non- diplomatic operating in Iraq today. But the question you raised, Congresswoman, is broader than the operation of CPA Order 17 --
REP. SCHAKOWSKY: Correct, correct.
MR. SATTERFIELD: -- and we recognize that.
REP. SCHAKOWSKY: Correct.
MR. SATTERFIELD: It deals with issues of jurisdiction and authority in U.S. domestic law, not just the operation of a piece of Iraqi law that provides immunities from Iraqi prosecution.
REP. SCHAKOWSKY: Right. And so is it your position that a Blackwater contractor working for the State Department can be court- martialed in the military justice system?
MR. SATTERFIELD: The issue of jurisdiction and operation of U.S. domestic law, reach of U.S. domestic law, over individuals who are covered by the operation of CPA Order 17 --
REP. SCHAKOWSKY: No, no --
MR. SATTERFIELD: -- in certain cases is a question being examined now.
REP. SCHAKOWSKY: So almost five years later, we're now figuring out who is subject to what laws?
MR. SATTERFIELD: This is a broader issue than Iraq, CPA Order 17, or Blackwater. It is a global issue involving --
REP. SCHAKOWSKY: Do you think it's a problem --
MR. SATTERFIELD: -- jurisdiction.
REP. SCHAKOWSKY: -- that, almost five years or four and a half years into the war, that only two of the God knows how many people of the 160,000 we think are now serving in terms of contractors have been formally charged with anything and prosecuted? Don't you think that's prima facie evidence that we're not doing enough?
MR. SATTERFIELD: No, Congresswoman, because that would require an examination of whether, in fact, there was a body of individuals for whom there was reason to believe prosecution should be made.
REP. SCHAKOWSKY: So we think --
MR. SATTERFIELD: And I'm not able to comment on that.
REP. SCHAKOWSKY: So you would say that perhaps only two people out of all of those private contractors that have served should be charged with anything.
MR. SATTERFIELD: Congresswoman, I'm not able to comment on culpability under U.S. law, existing or ideal.
REP. SCHAKOWSKY: I'm asking you to comment on whether our oversight structure is sufficient if that has been the outcome.
MR. SATTERFIELD: There are significant issues involving the clarity and application of U.S. domestic law with respect to certain classes of individuals who operate in environments such as Iraq, but not exclusively in Iraq.
REP. WAXMAN: The gentlelady's time has expired.
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