MSNBC "Hardball with Chris Matthews" Interview with Senator Charles Schumer (D-NY) Interviewer" Chris Matthews

Interview

MSNBC "HARDBALL WITH CHRIS MATTHEWS" INTERVIEW WITH SENATOR CHARLES SCHUMER (D-NY) INTERVIEWER: CHRIS MATTHEWS

MR. MATTHEWS: Democratic Senator from New York Chuck Schumer is a member of the Judiciary Committee. He joins us now by telephone.

Senator Schumer, was this a firing or was this a resignation? How do you see it?

SEN. SCHUMER: I believe it was a firing. I think that the administration came to its senses and finally realized that so many things that they found important -- renegotiating a FISA bill, dealing with anticrime, dealing with terrorism -- just couldn't function as long as Gonzales stayed as attorney general.

MR. MATTHEWS: One of his toughest critics has been Arlen Specter of Pennsylvania, a Republican. Do you believe that the Republicans had a hand in undermining this appointment and bringing about this resignation -- this firing, as you call it?

SEN. SCHUMER: Well, I think it was clear to the Republicans in the Senate, many of them, including Senator Specter, that this man was way above his head, that he really couldn't do the job. And just because he was a loyal friend of the president's doesn't mean that he should be attorney general.

So I think that what everybody saw about the attorney general -- his inability to really come clean with the truth, his incompetence in running the department -- just kept weighing and weighing on them, and they realized they couldn't get things done.

I'd make one more quick point, Chris. I think the departure of Rove, the fact that maybe Gillespie and Bolten are now gaining an upper hand, may mean a change in this administration's policies of just pure confrontation on issues like this.

MR. MATTHEWS: Well, let's talk about the bright side of this. Bob Gates came in as secretary of Defense and he cleaned up things as best he could in the short run. At Walter Reed we saw that. He cleaned house over there. Do you think Josh Bolten at the White House is doing the same? Do you believe he's really going to change the face of this administration?

SEN. SCHUMER: Well, I hope so, because it's been an administration basically of confrontation, particularly on security issues and the kinds of issues that are so important in the Justice Department. And it hasn't gotten them very far.

They have a year and a half left in their term, and they could do what Ronald Reagan did in his last year and a half, which is work with the other side, which had gained ascendancy in the midterm elections, and Reagan looked much better for it. I hope Bush will do the same.

MR. MATTHEWS: Well, that's true. He had a good ending to his administration, Ronald Reagan.

Let me ask you about some of the particulars that bother citizens, beyond politics; the torture issue. Do you believe we'll get somebody in as attorney general who will have a different attitude about the Geneva Convention?

SEN. SCHUMER: You know, generally, Chris, we Democrats want to come to an agreement with George Bush. And the criteria has to be not that the person has liberal or more Democratic political views -- they're going to be a conservative; that's Bush's right -- but they at least put rule of law first. When it comes to torture, when it comes to wiretapping, when it comes to U.S. attorneys, all of that, we need someone who will put rule of law first. Even John Ashcroft, who was more conservative than Gonzales, put that first.

MR. MATTHEWS: Do you believe that Attorney General Gonzales broke the law?

SEN. SCHUMER: And, by the way, if the president nominates somebody who is like that, we will work with the president. We don't want a confrontational hearing.

MR. MATTHEWS: Well, let me ask you about the standards. You remember, Senator, back in Watergate days, when Senator Kennedy was on Judiciary and he was able to basically hold up the confirmation of Elliot Richardson for attorney general during the worst days of Watergate by saying, "We want special guarantees that the independent counsel will be protected from any kind of political firing" -- Archibald Cox.

Do you think you, as members of the committee, will be able to hold up the confirmation this time of a new attorney general by setting certain standards that new AG will have to meet?

SEN. SCHUMER: I think we can, but I think it's our preference that the president choose an attorney general who will uphold rule of law. And I think there's a great debate in the White House. I've talked to some people there today right now as to whether to do that. I think there's a real possibility they may, and then we won't have to hold up and confront on issue after issue, but rather we will get some real results. And that's what the American people need and want. We are not in a mode that we're looking to pick a fight. We hope the president is in the same, and then we can come to some kind of agreement.

MR. MATTHEWS: If the president hadn't fired Gonzales, as you say, would you have been able to impeach him or would you have been stuck -- we would have all, as a country, been stuck with him, if you will?

SEN. SCHUMER: I think we probably would have been stuck with him, because the Republican senators, as badly as they thought of Gonzales, were unwilling to vote against him. In that vote of no confidence, we got 56 or 57 but not more. We needed 60.

MR. MATTHEWS: Okay, Senator Charles Schumer, member of the Senate Judiciary Committee.

SEN. SCHUMER: Just one thing, Chris. I want to say hello from Gloversville, New York. I took time out from meeting with the Gloversville Chamber of Commerce. So I hope people remember Gloversville. It's a great place.

MR. MATTHEWS: Well, as somebody we both knew and loved, all politics is local, sir.

SEN. SCHUMER: Thank you, sir.

MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you very much, Senator Charles Schumer of New York.

SEN. SCHUMER: Goodbye.

END.

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