ABC This Week with George Stephanopoulos - Transcript

ABC News Transcripts

SHOW: THIS WEEK WITH GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS (09:00 AM ET) - ABC

HEADLINE: THIS WEEK WITH GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS THE END OF SADDAM

BODY:
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS

(Off Camera) Senator Collins, you're a member of the Armed Services Committee, I know you were in Iraq this summer back in July. Senator Biden just a few moments ago, said that this is the time now to internationalize even more what is happening in Iraq. Do you agree with that?

SENATOR SUSAN COLLINS, REPUBLICAN, MAINE

I think it would be helpful to have more international troops assisting with the security of Iraq. The coalition forces have borne the burden so far and perhaps this will finally prompt some of the countries whom we have asked to send troops to do so. I hope so. It certainly is a great development.

GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS

(Off Camera) Senator Hagel, Terry Moran told us the president called Tony Blair and Adnan Pachachi. Is the time to call French President Jacques Chirac?

SENATOR CHUCK HAGEL, REPUBLICAN, NEBRASKA

Well, I'm sure the president will call the French president. George, this is the most significant event since the invasion of Iraq. This is an opportunity just as Senator Biden said, as Bill Frist noted what the president said a few hours ago. This is an opportunity not only to deal with Saddam, allow the world to see how it's done the right way, allow the Iraqi people to do the dealing, increase the internationalization of the efforts, so it's not seen as just an American deal, an American show, bring the rest of the Arab Islamic world into this. There's an opening and opportunity here to really do some things that we've been struggling to do, so this is, this is a very, very important day, probably historic.

GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS

(Off Camera) Let me try to separate the two questions. You, you, both you and Senator Biden said this trial has to be done correctly and you talk about internationalizing the effort. Does that mean in your mind that the trial itself should be internationalized or just the reconstruction, rebuilding security effort?

SENATOR CHUCK HAGEL

George, I don't think you can separate those pieces and here's why, what's critically important here is the underpinning of confidence and trust the Iraqi people must now have, eventually have and how all of this was put together. It is their country. It will be their decision-making process that will ultimately lead them to hopefully democracy and all the things that we hope will happen. But that starts one piece at a time just as Bill Frist noted and the president said, and certainly how we deal with Saddam Hussein in a tribunal, who tries him, is part of that. I'm not equipped sitting here this morning to figure all that out. That's well beyond me, but don't underestimate the importance of that process.

GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS

(Off Camera) George, this is going to be the critical question. Who tries him? How he's tried, how quickly he is tried, what comes out in trial. What's your view?

GEORGE WILL, ABC NEWS

(Off Camera) Well, Senator Biden is quite right. This is an opportunity, first as the educational opportunity. We tend to forget that had at the Nuremberg Tribunal they not deployed for the first time to the world the evidence of the Holocaust, Holocaust denial would have been, begun a lot earlier, and would've been a lot harder to stop. First they had to establish the facts and this trial will do that. Second, this is a chance for Iraq saying these were crimes not against humanity largely against the Iraqi people, of course, the Iran/Iraq war enters into this somehow, but Saddam did not commit crimes against humanity in the Nuremberg formulation. These were crimes against those people who now it seems to me should try him and in the trying of him, establish certain predicates about what Iraqi justice is going to look like in the future. Remember the Nuremberg Tribunal had one terrible anomaly, one of the four charges they the Nazis were tried for was waging aggressive war. Sitting in judgment were Soviet judges. The Soviet Union had been Hitler's ally when he waged aggressive war, first against Poland and then against the drive into France, Belgium and Holland and western Europe. Some Iraqis might say, it would be a bit odd to have the European Union, the major members of which were not helpful in removing Saddam Hussein, then coming around to say, now we'll sit in judgment on Saddam Hussein.

GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS

(Off Camera) I want to get all your reaction to that as well. But we have to take a short break. We'll be back with Senator Frist, Senator Collins, Senator Hagel and George Will.

commercial break

AMBASSADOR PAUL BREMER

(Off Camera) And we're back. And Senator Collins, let me have you pick up where George Will left off there, the specter in his mind that the Hague would be taking over this trial. Do you think that's a good idea or a bad idea?

SENATOR SUSAN COLLINS

Well, I'm not inclined in that direction. The idea of having a French judge perhaps sit in judgment is not an attractive one as we were talking during the break. It seems to me that we have to proceed very carefully and think out all the ramifications of the trial location. There's security issues within Iraq that would have to be addressed, but it's the Iraqi people who have suffered most from the brutal regime of Saddam Hussein, so my inclination is to think that it should be an Iraqi tribunal that conducts the trial but the first step is we have to thoroughly interrogate Saddam, get the information that we can and then decide how to proceed.

GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS

(Off Camera) Senator Hagel, you just returned from the Middle East, from Morocco, I believe, and given what you learned there and from your many trips to the region, what do you think the United States now, what's the best use they can make of the events of today to reach out, you say that we'll call on the Iraqis to reach out but how do we reach out to the other Arab nations, other Middle Eastern nations?

SENATOR CHUCK HAGEL

I think the first way you do that is include them, be inclusive. I, I take some issue with Senator Collins' comment on the French judge. I mean, the French are easy to kick around. We've been doing that for a long time and in many cases they deserve it, but now, this is a time, it seems to me, to take the high ground, and we can afford here to reach out and bring other nations in, you know the contracting issue this week that's dominated the news. I didn't think that was very smart. Mainly because we have an effort going on one side to bring in people, but yet on another side we're pushing them away. Here's an event here that everyone benefits from. This is a common interest of the world that this guy has been caught, to try this guy, to get this guy out of the way. Why would we push people away? So Susan is right, we need to think it through and be careful, but I go back to the last comment I made to you. Don't underestimate the importance of this because the rest of the world, especially the Arab world, Islamic world, that we're going to need over there, to help bring some resolution to Iraq and hopefully democracy to Iraq, it's going to be critical to this, as well as other nations, our allies.

GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS

(Off Camera) Senator Frist, Senator Hagel says reach out. You also raised some eyebrows last week at the flap over the contracting and you seem to suggest that you thought that was a little too hard line. Is it now time for a new approach?

SENATOR BILL FRIST

Well, I think this gives us an opportunity to get that appropriate balance. I would argue, though, a little bit different tone today that today really will be a focus on the Iraqi people. The images of him being pulled, Saddam Hussein being pulled out of a hole today. The fact that there are 300,000 people in mass graves that he put into these holes, the idea that he's buried weapons in holes, all of a sudden this coming out of that hole I think is very symbolic. Yes, for the world, but, again, back to the Iraqi people. The informant was an Iraqi informant, who gave us the coalition information, again, it is Iraqi, and what George said about the focus on, he is an Iraqi problem, a problem created for the world, and I would argue as well that the response should be predominantly an Iraqi response. That's where the mass murderers, murders have been. That's where the chemical weapons have been used. Yes, he's invaded other countries but it's their freedom for the last 20 years that have been sty, stymied and shackled, that with today all of a sudden are unleashed.

GEORGE WILL

(Off Camera) Yes. In victory, said Churchill, magnanimity. And we're victorious, and we can afford to be magnanimous. But Saddam Hussein isn't a prop in a drama for a great American gesture. He doesn't belong to us. This is an Iraqi problem, this is a moment for the Iraqis to say, we can handle this. We're asking them to handle democracy, free press, political parties, all the rest. This is a first step. We can handle a gross case of criminality in a criminal justice system.

GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS

(Off Camera) Well, let's talk about those pictures. You point out these pictures of Saddam Hussein hiding in a tiny crawl space. His hair unkempt. The picture really of a coward in these final days. What difference will that make in Iraq and the Arab world?

GEORGE WILL

(Off Camera) There is a cultural aspect of the Arab world, which does not like, does not respect losers. It's human nature, actually, to like a winner. That's why so many people are Yankees fans, I guess, but in fact, there is a tendency for people to follow the big battalions. He doesn't look like a big battalion. In the end, he looked humiliated.

GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS

(Off Camera) This, this has to be the best possible way for this to end for the United States, no mystery, no death in a blaze of fire. Do you agree?

SENATOR SUSAN COLLINS

Yes, and no uncertainty about whether or not we got the right person. I think in the long run, this is going to be very demoralizing to the remnants of the Baathist regime, in the short run, who knows? It may prompt some of the insurgents to strike even harder but in the long run, this clearly signals that the game is over.

GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS

(Off Camera) And, Senator Hagel, a test, I guess for many of the Iraqi people. We talk about the remnants of the Baathist regime but there've also been these scattered reports over the last several months that Iraq has become a magnet for al Qaeda and what's your guess on how accepting the Iraqi people now that the specter of Saddam Hussein is gone, how accepting they will be to these al Qaeda elements coming into Iraq?

SENATOR CHUCK HAGEL

My sense of it is, and I'm not an expert on any of this, is that this is going to be very helpful to our efforts. However, I think the reality is and I think any general or commander in Iraq will tell you, this is far from over. This is a big step we've taken here in capturing him and we ought to, by the way, applaud and I know we all do the United States army, and our military forces that have done such a magnificent job, but we have a long way to go. This is not over, and that's why how we handle this and the process and the Iraqi people's involvement here is so critically important because if this is done right over the next few months this comes at the same time of trying to develop elections and maneuvering the Iraqi people so they can govern themselves, defend themselves as soon as possible. All this is connected, and that's why I gave you the earlier answer about you can't separate these events.

GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS

(Off Camera) This also comes at a time, Senator Frist, when the United States was preparing for a massive changeover in military forces in Iraq over the next several months taking out everyone who is there and putting in entire fresh, new divisions. Given that and given the stresses that the military is under, do you think now this will provide the opportunity to lower the number of American forces or is it just too early to tell?

SENATOR BILL FRIST

It is premature, I think. Susan really caught the word for the opposition. This is got, this is demoralizing. On the other hand, there is going to be a number two. There's going to be a whole group of people who want to emerge who have been afraid to replace Saddam Hussein, so I don't think we should again say the war is over and we can start pull out. We can't, and it is premature to say that or even hypothesize that that will be the case. On the same, on the flip side of that for our troops, imagine if you were over there fighting everyday, day in, day out and the same way this is demoralizing to the opposition, this is energizing, this is why you are there, you are fulfilling the mission, that is why you have left your family to serve the freedom and democracies that we have in this country, so I think it is energizing and I think that both of those, that juxtaposition of demoralization on one side and the energizing on the, on our side, the coalition side, forebodes well, again come back to the Iraqi people. That's going to be the face of today. I think the big change today, is that we're gonna see the Iraqi face increasingly, whether it's addressing the international issues, setting up through the Governing Council, whether it's a response to Saddam Hussein, whether, again, recognize that they're the ones who informed us as to where Saddam Hussein was. We may not have Saddam Hussein today if it wasn't for an Iraqi person so what I look today is a day that is a pivot point putting the Iraqi face and that is the opportunity that we have before us on this battle.

GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS

(Off Camera) Senator Collins, as Senator Frist was talking about those troops, I saw a big smile on your face. And you were nodding your head.

SENATOR SUSAN COLLINS

I did, indeed. I visited our troops in Iraq in July, and I know how committed they are to the mission. This is an extraordinary boost to their morale. It's getting the number one person who has caused such hardship and brutality for the Iraqi people, and I can just imagine our troops today celebrating, and they deserve to celebrate. They've done a magnificent job, and this represents a tremendous victory for their perseverance and for their skill.

GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS

(Off Camera) We can all agree with that. Thank you all very much. We'll be right back.

BREAK IN TRANSCRIPT
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS

(Off Camera) The commander of the 4th Infantry Division in Tikrit. He was the commanding general of the 600 forces that captured Saddam Hussein overnight. And we're joined back here in the studio by George Will, Senator Susan Collins, and Noah Feldman. And Senator Collins, I know you have to leave in a few minutes, so I just want to begin with you. General Odieno there was the picture of quiet confidence, doing all he could to suppress a smile, but obviously pleased with a job well done by his troops.

SENATOR SUSAN COLLINS

As well he should be. This is a tremendous victory for our troops. It's a real tribute to their hard work. I met the General when I was in Iraq this summer. I was so impressed with his leadership. And this is a day that is a day of celebration for our troops. It's going to be a boost to their morale.

GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS

(Off Camera) But as he says, even though this is a big, big victory for the United States forces and for the coalition forces, the job is far from done.

SENATOR SUSAN COLLINS

That's right. There's still a lot of work to be done, but this is such a major accomplishment. And in the long run, I think it's going to result in a very -in the morale of the opponents dropping considerably And I think this is a boost to the efforts to build a secure and free Iraq.

GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS

(Off Camera) One of the things I was struck by there, when you talk about the morale of the Iraqis, or the insurgents being diminished significantly, General Odierno seemed to go to great pains there to talk about how many people cooperated with the effort to take on Saddam. He talked about all of the families in Tikrit going one by one by one giving him more and more information, until finally the single individual fingered him at the last moment. That has to send a very powerful signal to the Iraqis.

SENATOR SUSAN COLLINS

It does, indeed, and it's a very positive signal because it bodes well for future cooperation. But until Saddam was captured there was a cloud of doubt, fear, and uncertainty hanging over the whole country that was impeding cooperation. So I think we'll see a lot more cooperation and we'll see the Iraqis working more closely with the Americans. But certainly, without the help of the Iraqi people we would not have been able to find Saddam.

GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS

(Off Camera) And, of course, a tremendous psychological boost for the forces themselves.

SENATOR SUSAN COLLINS

It really is. And I don't think we can undersell that, or underemphasize that. Our troops have been there a long time. They're very proud of their mission but they are weary. And this is going to give them a real boost.

GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS

Senator Susan Collins, thanks very much. We'll be right back with George Will and Noah Feldman.