MSNBC "Hardball"-Transcript

Interview

MR. MATTHEWS: So the "Hardball" debate tonight is clear: Should presidents meet with dangerous world leaders?

Congressman Steve Israel is a Democrat from New York. He's for Hillary. And Congressman Adam Smith from Washington State; he's for Obama.

Let me go to Congressman Israel. Who was right, Hillary Clinton or Obama, about whether we should have gone into Iraq? Hillary said we should have at least authorized the war. Obama said the war was bad in conception. Who was right?

REP. ISRAEL: Well, look, you can't go back in time. The important thing here, Chris, is what --

MR. MATTHEWS: I'm doing it.

REP. ISRAEL: -- we're going to do in the future.

MR. MATTHEWS: Congressman, I'm doing it right now. It came up in the debate the other night. Obama raised the question, "If you have vision, why did you take us into Iraq?" That's his challenge to Hillary Clinton. You're on this show as a surrogate for Mrs. Clinton, Senator Clinton. Was it visionary to authorize that war in Iraq?

REP. ISRAEL: Senator Clinton did not take us into war in Iraq. George Bush took us into war --

MR. MATTHEWS: She authorized it.

REP. ISRAEL: -- in Iraq and took us in --

MR. MATTHEWS: She authorized it.

REP. ISRAEL: -- that war in an irresponsible way, underfunding the troops, having no diplomatic plan. The difference between George Bush and Hillary Clinton is that Hillary Clinton has the experience, is able to marshal world resources and world leaders on a plan that will finally bring this thing to an end.

MR. MATTHEWS: Why did she authorize the war if she has vision?

REP. ISRAEL: Look, Chris, this is a senator who has been working very hard on different ways of getting us out of Iraq. This is a senator who believes that public diplomacy, particularly at the presidential level, has to be smart. It has to be shrewd. And that's what she's been advocating.

Senator Obama has said that he would meet with anybody, anywhere at any time. George Bush says that he won't meet with anybody for any reason at any time. Senator Clinton believes you meet with people based on the circumstances that prevail at the time.

MR. MATTHEWS: Okay, let me go to Congressman Smith.

Here's the question. Obama, your candidate, he says he wants to meet with Ahmadinejad and the rest. What are his preconditions? Does he have any, or he just wants to go meet them?

REP. SMITH: What he wants to do is he wants to engage. He wants to make it clear that we are not afraid of diplomacy. Where did we get the idea that the United States of America is so inept that if we talk to people, we will weaken ourselves? We have to be smart about what we discuss. We have to be forceful in putting forth what we want to accomplish.

But what Senator Obama was saying was being afraid of engagement doesn't make sense and has really harmed us. That has been what the Bush administration has done. And what he showed in the debate the other night was his willingness to challenge conventional wisdom, to bring about change. And I think what Senator Obama --

MR. MATTHEWS: Well, why is Hillary jumping all over him, then, if it was a smart move? Hillary seems to be having a victory lap at his expense the last couple of hours.

REP. SMITH: Well, not if you read the public opinion polls about where the voters are actually at on this issue. And I think what Senator Clinton, and Senator Edwards, for that matter, did is they had the same sort of reflexive reaction that the Bush administration has tried to force upon all of us, which is to say to reach out to anybody who disagrees with us is somehow a sign of weakness.

Senator Obama showed that he's willing to change. He's willing to challenge the status quo and move us forward. And he's not afraid of engaging. I think Senator Obama is a very smart man. If he engages in diplomacy, it is going to advance U.S. interests.

MR. MATTHEWS: Let me go to Congressman Israel on the bigger question of politics. Your candidate, Hillary Clinton, is running for the Democratic nomination for president. She's way ahead in the polls. Why did she pick a fight with Obama, who's way behind her? What's the politics of this thing?

REP. ISRAEL: She didn't pick a fight with him. The gloves aren't off in this thing.

MR. MATTHEWS: She attacked him.

REP. ISRAEL: No, Chris --

MR. MATTHEWS: She attacked him.

REP. ISRAEL: Chris, this is a difference of opinion.

MR. MATTHEWS: She said he's naive. She said he's an embarrassment.

REP. ISRAEL: Listen, here's what they agree on. They have been lambasting George Bush for a foreign policy that has been reckless. Hillary Clinton has led the fight lambasting George Bush for a foreign policy that has been reckless, for diplomacy that has been ineffective. She's been talking about her credentials as a first lady, somebody who has relationships with world leaders, who can bring them together to move this country forward, to advance our interests, not weaken our interests, as George Bush has.

MR. MATTHEWS: Okay --

REP. ISRAEL: The difference is --

MR. MATTHEWS: -- but when she voted -- she voted to authorize George Bush to make a decision on war. She trusted him. And now she's saying that Barack Obama is naive.

Who's naive?

REP. ISRAEL: Well --

MR. MATTHEWS: She trusted Bush not to go into Iraq, but everybody knew he was going into Iraq.

REP. ISRAEL: Chris, the issue is this. The statement --

MR. MATTHEWS: You knew that Bush was going into Iraq, Congressman, didn't you?

REP. ISRAEL: The statement --

MR. MATTHEWS: You always knew he was going into Iraq.

REP. ISRAEL: The statement -- if I could answer your question, the statement that --

MR. MATTHEWS: I'm just trying to get an answer.

REP. ISRAEL: -- we're going to treat public diplomacy like a wedding where you send the invitations a year in advance concerns many people. Again, George Bush says, "I won't meet with anybody, anywhere, any time on any issue." There's another view that says, "We'll meet with anybody, everywhere, all the time." Senator Clinton's view is --

MR. MATTHEWS: And you call that naive.

REP. ISRAEL: -- we take this on a case-by-case basis. You have to do it based on the expectation that there will be progress.

REP. SMITH: If I could, Chris --

MR. MATTHEWS: I don't know why your candidate attacked Obama when Obama's behind.

But let me ask you, Mr. Smith, your candidate has been waiting for a chance to tackle Hillary. She's given him an opening because she's attacked him. He's got the opening to attack from a defensive position now. Is he going to stay in this fight, or is he going to pull back?

REP. SMITH: Well, what Senator Obama is going to make clear is he has the judgment to be president of the United States and engage in foreign policy. He's not afraid of this debate whatsoever. He believes in engagement and diplomacy. And also, if you read his speech in 2002, before the Iraq war, the prescience of that speech is very impressive. It shows he has the judgment.

The issue that the Clinton campaign is choosing, and Senator Clinton herself, for that matter, is choosing to attack Senator Obama on won't fly. He has the judgment to be president.

MR. MATTHEWS: Let me ask you one last time, Congressman Israel. Did you think George Bush really was going to use diplomacy and avoid a war with Saddam Hussein?

REP. ISRAEL: There are many of us who made decisions based on the intelligence that George Bush presented to us at the time that, you know, in my view --

MR. MATTHEWS: No, but did you think he wasn't going to war? Did you think he -- Hillary keeps saying she didn't know the president was going to war. She thought he'd use diplomacy.

REP. ISRAEL: There are very few people in the United States --

MR. MATTHEWS: Did you think that?

REP. ISRAEL: Look, today we passed a resolution by a wide margin, Republicans and Democrats, saying that we don't want permanent bases in Iraq. There are many of us -- in fact, I can't think of anybody who would say that the decision that the president made ended up being the right decision and was managed the right way. And that's why Senator Clinton has been leading the battle against his reckless foreign policy and inept management of this war.

MR. MATTHEWS: Okay, thank you very much, Congressman Steve Israel of New York and U.S. Congressman -- both U.S. congressmen -- Adam Smith from Washington State.

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