CNN Late Edition-Transcript

CNN Late Edition-Transcript

BLITZER: Welcome back to "Late Edition." I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. Last week, the U.S. Senate came to the brink of direct confrontation with President Bush on Iraq, but then backed off.

This week, the House of Representatives will try once again. Joining us to discuss the debate over the war in Iraq and more, two key U.S. senators. Joining us from his home state of Texas, Republican Senator Jon Cornyn. He's a member of the Armed Services Committee. And with us here in Washington, Democratic Senator Ron Wyden of Oregon. He's a member of the Select Intelligence Committee.

Senators, both of you, welcome back to "Late Edition." Let me start with you, Senator Wyden, since you're on the Intelligence Committee. You heard the interview with Doug Feith, the former Pentagon official. He made the case, what they were trying to do was simply critique the CIA's intelligence assessment before the war. Did he do anything wrong?

SEN. RON WYDEN (D), OREGON: I don't think that was what was going on. I think the administration was doing everything they possibly could to leave the impression that there was a close connection between al-Qaida and Hussein.

Every member of the Senate Intelligence Committee, on a bipartisan basis, found otherwise, and yet repeatedly the administration tried to draw that connection. Also, Mr. Feith -- and this was brought out by the inspector general -- seemed to have said different things to different people, and that was brought out by Senator Reid last week. .

BLITZER: When he was briefing the White House as opposed to the CIA, for example, on his findings.

Senator Cornyn, what do you make of this? Because the accusation is a very serious one, that top Pentagon officials, top officials in the White House were deliberately cherry-picking intelligence to make the case to go to war against Saddam Hussein, when some of the evidence simply wasn't there, specifically the alleged connection between Saddam and al-Qaida.

SEN. JOHN CORNYN (R), TEXAS: Well, we know, Wolf, that that allegation is false, because the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence that Senator Wyden sits on, on a bipartisan basis in 2004, said there wasn't any manipulation of the evidence. We found the WMD commission, a bipartisan commission, came to the same conclusion.

And, you know, I'm a little bit troubled with the idea that we can't ask hard questions of the CIA's intelligence, and people can't engage in something other than group think about some of these important issues. And I think a little diversity of view and opinion and debate is a good thing, not a bad thing. WYDEN: Of course you want to ask hard questions. We also ought to stick to the facts. And clearly, for months and months, there was an effort to draw a connection. It was one of the central issues with respect to going to war.

Of course, one of the arguments was there are weapons of mass destruction. That was proved incorrect. The other was the impression, and it was given repeatedly, that there was this connection between al-Qaida and Saddam Hussein. There wasn't, and yet people like Doug Feith always tried to come back to it.

BLITZER: And so, but do you believe that that was a deliberate distortion of the evidence that was at hand, or it was just an effort to try to make sure to properly look into that alleged connection? After 9/11, there was a lot of concern that who was involved in plotting 9/11? Did the Iraqis under Saddam Hussein have any role? That was a legitimate area to investigate.

WYDEN: No question, but I believe the inspector general is correct. What Mr. Feith did was inappropriate, number one. Senator Rockefeller, our chairman, is also correct. There are serious questions about whether Mr. Feith broke the 1947 statute that requires that our committee be informed.

BLITZER: Let's move on, Senator Cornyn, to get your reaction to this briefing that occurred in Baghdad today, suggesting that the Iranians are providing sophisticated munitions to Iraqi Shia forces, and those munitions can penetrate an Abrams battle tank, the most sophisticated armor, and they're killing a lot of Americans. If this is in fact true, what does it mean?

CORNYN: Well, we've known for some time that these explosively formed projectiles can penetrate any kind of armor that we have to protect our troops with. And this is obviously extremely serious evidence that Iran has been involved in supplying these kinds of weapons to Shia militants is very disconcerting. And I will tell you that we have to do everything within our power to stop it, and I'm confident we will.

BLITZER: What do you think, Senator Wyden?

WYDEN: Of course we're going to take the steps we need to protect our troops. That's first and foremost. But also, we've been waiting in the United States Senate for a full-scale briefing from the administration with respect to Iran. They have been putting it off for days and days. We ought to have those facts.

BLITZER: Here's what Senator Biden, Senator Cornyn, said the other today, raising questions about the credibility of U.S. intelligence right now, given the failures leading up to the war in Iraq. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOSEPH R. BIDEN JR., D-DEL.: The rhetoric coming from the administration about Iran is starting to sound a bit like a run-up that we heard to the Iraq war in the fall of 2002.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Senator Cornyn, how much of a credibility problem does the Bush administration have right now?

CORNYN: Well, the problem is, Wolf, we have so many members of the United States Senate who are running for 2008, I think we need to put this in a larger context. But the fact of the matter is that we need to do whatever we can to protect our troops. And the fact is that the Iranians are very much involved in what's happening in Iraq right now.

It would be helpful if, rather than non-binding resolutions criticizing the president's plan to stabilize Iraq, that we would actually work together on a bipartisan basis to figure out how we can accomplish that goal so we can bring our troops home as soon as possible without endangering the national security of our country.

BLITZER: Well, you're a member, Senator Wyden, of the Intelligence Committee. You have access to the latest intelligence. Do you think that the intelligence you've seen, without violating any rules of classification, is credible as far as an Iranian connection to the Shia militants in Iraq going after U.S. forces?

WYDEN: I want the administration to deliver the full briefing that they promised, the one that's been put off time and time again now, so we can really get at the facts. We've had all this talk in the last few weeks, Wolf, about a military surge. I think what's really needed in the region is a diplomatic surge. and I think the country wants to hear that as well.

BLITZER: Well, let me press you on this point, Senator Wyden, and I'll play a clip of what the new defense secretary, Robert Gates, said this week. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SECRETARY OF DEFENSE ROBERT M. GATES: We have no intention of attacking Iran. The president said that. The secretary of state said it. I've said it before.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: All right. Do you believe him?

WYDEN: That was said repeatedly before the effort was made to go to war with Iraq. I want to make it also clear that I and others in the Senate are going to insist if there is any effort to go to war with Iran, the president would have to come to the United States Congress, and Congress would first have to approve it.

BLITZER: Again, another full-scale resolution authorizing that.

WYDEN: Absolutely. BLITZER: Are you on board as far as that's concerned, Senator Cornyn, that if the U.S. were to launch any military strike again Iran, a formal resolution authorizing it by the U.S. Congress would be necessary?

CORNYN: Well, Wolf, no one is suggesting that we do so. And I think it's a little bit of a straw man that some of our friends on the other side are proposing to worry people that we can't do what we need to do to defend ourselves and our troops. My hope is that we would agree that we would do whatever is necessary to defend our country and our troops against this threat.

And as far as briefings, this is a matter of some common knowledge for a while that these explosively formed penetrator devices are commonly supplied through Iranian sources, and we need to stop it.

BLITZER: When you say no one is suggesting the U.S. might launch some sort of strike against Iran, let me read to you from the British newspaper The Guardian on Saturday, Senator Cornyn: "U.S. preparations for an air strike against Iran are at an advanced stage. the present military build-up in the Gulf would allow the U.S. to mount an attack by the spring. But the sources said that if there was an attack, it was more likely next year, just before Mr. Bush leaves office."

What's your reaction to that?

CORNYN: Well, I can't speculate as to what their source of information is or whether this is just something they've dreamed up, but the fact of the matter is, we have a variety of contingency plans. Matter of fact, any nation like ours has to have a variety of contingency plans for almost any imaginable scenario. And my hope is and my expectation would be that we would have a variety of plans on the shelf to protect ourselves under a variety of different situations.

BLITZER: We're going to take a break, but I want you to just react very quickly, Senator Wyden. That would be prudent for the U.S. military to have contingency plans on almost anything.

WYDEN: Of course, but look, the administration is engaged in a drumbeat with Iran that is much like the drumbeat that they did with Iraq. We're going to insist on accountability. They'll have to come to the Congress, and Congress will have to vote to approve it before their support.

BLITZER: All right, senators, stand by. We're going to take a quick break. We have a lot more to talk about with these two senators, including why the United States is under fire now for some world leaders, especially the Russian president, Vladimir Putin. But up next, a quick check of what's in the news right now, including the latest on the increasing violence in Baghdad. "Late Edition" will continue right after this.

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BLITZER: Welcome back to "Late Edition." I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington.

We're continuing our conversation with two key U.S. lawmakers: Republican Senator John Cornyn and Democratic Senator Ron Wyden.

A former director of the U.S. National Security Agency, retired U.S. Army Lieutenant General William Odom, has an article in the Washington Post this Sunday, in which he says, among other things, that "Victory is not an option in Iraq. The first and most critical step is to recognize that fighting on now simply prolongs our losses and blocks the way to a new strategy. Getting out of Iraq is the pre- condition for creating new strategic options. Withdrawal will take away the conditions that allow our enemies in the region to enjoy our pain."

Senator Cornyn, a blast, a very, very serious charge from General Odom, suggesting that the U.S. simply can't win as long as it keeps troops in Iraq.

CORNYN: Well, tragically, Wolf, there are those who have given up on our effort to stabilize Iraq and to leave Iraq in a condition that it can govern and defend itself, which is important to our national security.

And, unfortunately, the critics who counsel defeat have not offered any alternative suggestions about what they would do to deal with the regional conflict that will undoubtedly ensue, or the failed state where terrorists can use to launch future terrorist attacks, or the vast humanitarian crisis that will occur there along with ethnic cleansing.

I think they owe us these alternative suggestions if they're going to counsel us to pull out now without with regard to the circumstances on the ground.

BLITZER: Are you among those, Senator Wyden, who says simply pull out, that's the best option right now?

WYDEN: No Democrat is talking about a precipitous withdrawal, but what General Odom is talking about is that a win in that part of the world now will be having some regional stability.

Look, Wolf, the last four months in Iraq have been the bloodiest we've had. We've lost more than 3,100 courageous soldiers. Every time we figure out how to deal with one set of these explosive devices, you come up with another. What we need to do is focus, as I describe it, not on a military surge, but on a diplomatic surge and work to have regional stability.

BLITZER: Senator Cornyn, a very, very blunt rebuke of the United States, the Bush administration's strategy around the world coming in this weekend from the Russian President Vladimir Putin. He said this, and I want you to listen to this translation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PRES. VLADIMIR PUTIN, RUSSIA (THROUGH TRANSLATOR): One state, the United States, has overstepped its national borders in every way, in economics, in politics, in humanitarian, all imposed by one state. Who would like that?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: What does this say about the state of U.S./Russian relations right now when the leader of Russia rebukes, in effect, the president of the United States in these harsh terms?

CORNYN: Well, Wolf, I think the only phrase I can think of is it's the pot calling the kettle black. Putin hasn't exactly been a force for democracy in his own country as he consolidates power to the detriment of the people of his country, as he silenced critics in the press and in the Democratic process.

You know, he, I'm sure, has his own reasons for taking the United States on as directly as he has, but I agree with Secretary of Defense Robert Gates, that one Cold War is enough. We need to try to find ways to constructively engage and work together to eliminate nuclear threats like Iran, for example.

BLITZER: Senator Wyden, what does it say to you?

WYDEN: I strongly disagree with Mr. Putin's statement as well. Certainly, it's a provocative one and it seems to me he's been trying to set up a oil cartel. He's been helping the Sudanese. Certainly, he has engaged in a variety of provocative acts.

At the same time, when he says something like that, he can take advantage of the fact that, around the world, countries are saying the United States has not done enough on the diplomatic front. And it seems to me what we ought to be doing, we ought to be talking to some people. And some of those people ought to be bad actors when it is in our national security interest.

BLITZER: And another rather blunt comment, perhaps undiplomatic, the Australian prime minister, John Howard, Senator Cornyn, speaking out and really hammering the position laid out yesterday by Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama. Listen to what John Howard said on Australian television.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN HOWARD, AUSTRALIAN PRIME MINISTER: I think he's wrong. If I were running Al Qaida in Iraq, I would put a circle around March 2008 and pray as many times as possible for a victory not only for Obama, but also for the Democrats.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: All right. What do you think about that, Senator Cornyn?

CORNYN: Well, I would prefer that Mr. Howard stay out of our domestic politics and we'll stay out of his domestic politics, but I think his point is that we're going to have to deal with terrorist organizations like Al Qaida. They're not giving up and we shouldn't give up in this battle of wills.

And an unstable Iraq, where they can use as a failed state and launching pad to launch future terrorist attacks is exactly what they want, and exactly what we need to deny them.

BLITZER: I don't remember a time when a world leader has directly gotten involved in American politics like that, Senator Wyden, but maybe you do.

WYDEN: The most charitable thing you can say about Mr. Howard's comment is it is bizarre. You know, we'll make our own judgments in this country with respect to elections, and Barack Obama is a terrific public servant.

The bottom line is, what we need to do is work together. Clearly, we're in a world where we have to fight the terrorists. We have to pull out all the stops and relentlessly fight them. We can do it, but we have to have a much stronger focus on diplomacy.

BLITZER: Which Democrat candidate are you supporting for president?

WYDEN: I'm the Senate's designated driver, Wolf. I'm the only person in the United States Senate who has announced he's not running for president. I guess that means I can take a pass and work with all of them.

BLITZER: And what about you, Senator Cornyn?

CORNYN: I thought Senator Wyden's answer was very good, and I'm going to adopt it for myself on the Republican side.

BLITZER: All right, so you're not running either. Is that right?

CORNYN: That's absolutely right.

BLITZER: All right, we've got two United States senators here who are not running for president. I guess that's some news.

Thanks, guys, very much, for coming in.

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