CNN Late Edition - Transcript

BLITZER: Thank you, Carol. And let's get our guests take, now, on the best way forward in Iraq.

Joining us, two key members of the Senate Armed Services Committee: In Dallas, Republican Senator John Cornyn of Texas; here in Washington, Democratic Senator Jack Reed of Rhode Island.

Senators, good to have both of you here on "Late Edition." Senator Cornyn, I'll start with you, and this headline in the New York Times this morning that the insurgents, basically, are now self- sustaining financially. They're raising anywhere from $50 million, $80 million a year to $200 million a year from their own various means, including extortion and blackmail, to sustain themselves.

And also, this ominous report, coming out of this story in the New York Times, which quotes a classified U.S. intelligence report: "In fact, if recent revenue and expense estimates are correct, terrorists and insurgent groups in Iraq may have surplus funds with which to support other terrorist organizations outside of Iraq."

This is extremely disturbing, as you can imagine.

SEN. JOHN CORNYN (R), TEXAS: Well, it is. And it shows that criminal enterprises in Iraq of all stripes, whether it's smuggling oil or kidnappings and extorting ransom or other criminal activities are what are financing the insurgency.

That's why I believe we have to go big, in the terms of the Pentagon. We have to surge additional force there so that we cannot only clear areas in Baghdad but we can actually hold them.

BLITZER: How big do you want to go?

How many additional -- beyond the 145,000 U.S. troops already on the ground, how many more do you want to deploy?

CORNYN: Well, I would take the advice of our generals on the ground. But I think we're talking about 20 to 50,000 additional troops to embed them with the Iraqis, so that when we clear areas, we can actually secure them.

Then we need to disarm the militias. We need to arrest al-Sadr and make sure the government has a monopoly on the use of legal force.

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BLITZER: Let me bring Senator Cornyn back. Senator McCain agrees with you, and Senator Lindsey Graham, another member of the Armed Services Committee -- they agree the U.S. has to go big, deploying an additional 20,000, maybe more, as many as 50,000 is what you're saying.

But what do you say to General Abizaid, the U.S. military central commander, who says that is not necessarily a good idea?

CORNYN: Well, I respect General Abizaid immensely. And what General Abizaid, I think, is failing to take into adequate account is the political reality in the United States.

The fact is we need to surge the number of troops there so we can secure Baghdad and allow the political reconciliation and rapprochement that Jack Reed is talking about.

It's not going to happen in the face of this kind of lawlessness. We're not talking about an open-ended commitment. We're talking about a temporary surge and get that basic security to allow the political institutions to work out their differences.

BLITZER: So how long would 180,000 or 200,000 U.S. troops, according to your estimate, be deployed in Iraq?

How long would this surge last?

CORNYN: I think General Abizaid had it about right. He said he thinks we have about another four to six months to get this right. And I think that's what we're looking at.

BLITZER: Well, we'll see what the recommendations are. In addition to the New York Times story suggesting that this insurgency is now financially, Senator Reed, self-sustaining, the national security adviser of Iraq, Mowaffak al-Rubaie, was here on "Late Edition" in the last hour.

He also said there was another huge problem, sustaining the insurgency, the sectarian violence. Listen to this clip.

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AL-RUBAIE: The countries are afraid of our democracy. And I'm not saying that these are the governments of these countries, but they are the businessmen; they are the Islamic movements in these countries, helping the insurgency to bring down the democracy in Iraq.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: He didn't mention names, but he said several Arab countries, neighbors of Iraq, are sustaining the insurgency for various reasons.

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BLITZER: Senator Cornyn, what do you want the president to tell this Iraqi prime minister when they meet in Amman, Jordan, this week, specifically about your recommendation that these Shiite death squads, these militias, that the government has to start taking charge and deal with them, especially Muqtada al-Sadr?

CORNYN: I'd like the president to tell Prime Minister Maliki that America's commitment is not open-ended but we are committed to securing Iraq, through surging additional forces there, to allow the political institutions to work out their differences.

But it's also going to require the government, the lawful government of Iraq, to claim a monopoly on the lawful use of force. You can't have armed gangs in essence running the place with the kind of retaliation and sectarian violence we're seeing there. We need to establish basic security there.

And then Maliki is going to have to deal with his cabinet and reshuffle it and deal with his political problems with al-Sadr and his Shiite allies the best he can. But our commitment is not open-ended, and he needs to understand that. But we need to have a strategy to win.

I hope our friends on the other side of the aisle who've been so critical of the administration will now come up with a proposal of their own. I think it's time -- past time for us to work on a bipartisan basis to try to find a solution to actually secure Iraq and allow the process, the political process to work, rather than just giving up.

BLITZER: Do you think -- I want to take a break, Senator Cornyn, but do you think it's enough for the U.S. or the Iraqi government to arrest Muqtada al-Sadr, this young Shiite cleric, or is it time to take him out as some are suggesting? In other words, kill him.

CORNYN: Well, I would say arrest him, and if he's unable to go peacefully, obviously I think he's a danger to the Iraqis and the Iraqi future in the entire Middle East. We need to disarm him and his militias. Arrest them.

Take them out of action whatever way we need to, and to provide basic security to allow the political process that Jack Reed and others have talked about to go forward. It's not going to do that in a period of such chaos and violence as we're seeing right now.

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BLITZER: Are you going to cooperate with the Democrats when they're the majority in the Armed Services Committee, Senator Cornyn, in trying to restructure the funding of this war?

CORNYN: Absolutely. And I think Jack's exactly right. We do need to expand the size of the Marine Corps and the army to provide more ground troops so that we take pressure off of our troops who are seeing successive redeployments.

I respect Senator Hagel's views enormously as a veteran himself, but I do disagree with both Senator Reed and Senator Levin and Senator Hagel, who are calling for phased redeployment. I really don't what that means. To me, it sounds like we just want to leave without any plan to actually secure Iraq and allow the political processes to have any chance of working.

And as I said earlier, that's going to require us to take out people like al Sadr to disarm the militia and to give the Iraqi government, the legitimate Iraqi government, a monopoly on the use of force. We wouldn't tolerate that in this country. They can't tolerate it there and allow the political process to have any chance of working.

BLITZER: You want more troops deployed to Iraq, Senator Cornyn. Listen to what Democratic Congressman Charlie Rangel said here on CNN in "The Situation Room" earlier this week in justifying and demanding, if you will, a reinstatement of the U.S. military draft. Listen to this.

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U.S. REPRESENTATIVE CHARLES RANGEL, D-NEW YORK: If we're going to need more troops, I'm sick and tired of them coming to the same communities, offering hundreds of thousands of dollars and spending $4 billion in ads. Anyone that would tell you that the affluent are enlisting are just not telling the truth.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: All right. Is it a good idea to reinstate the draft, because the U.S. military right now, as you well know, Senator Cornyn, is stretched pretty thin?

CORNYN: No, it's not a good idea to reinstate the draft. And Mr. Rangel got two votes the last time that went up in the House of Representatives for a vote. We do need to build our military forces.

Even though we have 2.7 million men and women in uniform, we're seriously out of balance. We need more ground troops. And that's an area where I think that people like Jack Reed and I can work together on a bipartisan way to try to provide and take a little of the pressure off of our National Guard and our reservists and our active- duty military while we get the job done providing basic security in Iraq.

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BLITZER: We're almost out of time, but I want both of you to weigh in very quickly. Senator Cornyn, first to you on Afghanistan. It seems to be the forgotten war, if you will. A lot of U.S. troops are deployed there, and NATO now taking the lead.

General Michael Hayden, the CIA director, suggesting that the Taliban making a huge comeback right now. How worried are you about what's happening in Afghanistan, Senator Cornyn?

CORNYN: Well, I'm concerned, but in many ways, Afghanistan is a success story for those who have advocated multilateral engagement in the global war on terror. As you'll recall, I mean, this is a coalition of Americans and the Brits and of the willing, but now, we've got NATO deployed there. I think that's very much of a positive.

But we've got to cut off the illegal drug traffic, which has just really surged back and which is helping to finance a lot of the Taliban and other insurgent activities in Afghanistan.

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BLITZER: We've got to leave it there. Senator Reed, Senator Cornyn, thanks to both of you very much for coming into "Late Edition."

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