Hearing of the Immigration, Border Security and Citizenship Subcommittee of the Senate Judiciary Committee

SECTION: CAPITOL HILL HEARING

HEADLINE: HEARING OF THE IMMIGRATION, BORDER SECURITY AND CITIZENSHIP SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE SENATE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE
 
SUBJECT: VISA ISSUANCE: OUR FIRST LINE OF DEFENSE FOR HOMELAND SECURITY
 
CHAIRED BY: SENATOR SAXBY CHAMBLISS (R-GA)
 
LOCATION: 226 DIRKSEN SENATE OFFICE BUILDING, WASHINGTON, D.C.

WITNESSES: ASA HUTCHINSON, UNDERSECRETARY FOR BORDER AND TRANSPORTATION SECURITY DIRECTORATE, DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY;
 
MARUA HARTY, ASSISTANT SECRETARY FOR CONSULAR AFFAIRS, DEPARTMENT OF STATE
 
BODY:
SEN. JOHN CORNYN (R-TX): Just briefly, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for convening this hearing today and I want to thank the witnesses for coming to bring us up to date and to answer our questions in this important hearing.

I recently during the August month had a chance to go visit some other cities on the Texas-U.S. (sic) border, places like Laredo, the largest land port in the United States, and El Paso, another important border security, and hear from some of my constituents about how well we're doing, not only in theory but in practice, and I want to explore a little bit of that with the witnesses today. But also to travel to Mexico City and see what I was told will be really state of art when it comes to visa applications and issuance in capitals, foreign capitals like that around the world.

Finally, I just -- I've been reading and hearing a lot about lateral repatriation and have a few questions I want to be able to ask Mr. Hutchinson perhaps about that when the time comes. Thank you very much.

BREAK IN TRANSCRIPT
SEN. CORNYN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Hutchinson and Ms. Harty, let me preface what I have to say by also expressing my appreciation for the difficult job that you have to do and the challenges that you face. But I want to make sure I understand what the focus of both the Department of Homeland Security and the Office of Consular Affairs is. Is it counterterrorism or is it enforcement of our immigration laws? Or is it both?

MS. HARTY: Sir, with all due respect I think I can probably speak for both of us when I say it really is both. It's very hard to desegregate those two things. The bottom line, what we're trying to do is to push that border out as far as possible, to get information to the folks in the field so they make the best decisions possible. Whether that relates to a person who should not come to America because they are a common criminal or because they are coming here for a much more serious and nefarious reason, which we also obviously would like to stop. So I think it has both angles to it, sir.

SEN. CORNYN: Well, what I'm referring to specifically is the statistics that we've heard, that roughly 40 percent of the people who are currently in the United States illegally are people who have overstayed their visas. Which is not addressed by the laudable undertaking that you talked to us about today. And we know that roughly 8 to 10 million people live in the United States illegally. And as laudable and as important as the efforts that you're undertaking and you're here to describe, Secretary Hutchinson, is what your doing, does that address that? Or are we talking about an additional task entirely?

MR. HUTCHINSON: Well, there's a lot of factors and responses to that. But clearly what we're doing in strengthening the visa issuance responsibility improves the integrity of the system. For example, if we find information that someone might not be a threat to America but there's absolutely no chance they're going -- but they have an intent to stay there and overstay their visa, that there's a risk of not returning, then we're going to provide that information.

And so it will certainly address the issue and help strengthen the integrity of our immigration system. But also there's the US- VISIT program, obviously is a most important response to what you're reciting, where we know a foreign visitor that comes in under a visa, checks in but also has to check out, therefore we know if they overstay or violate the visas. That information is essential. And so this is part of the strengthening of our visa program, building on the integrity of our immigration system, but the US-VISIT program is a very important part of it as well.

SEN. CORNYN: I'm glad you brought up the US-VISIT program, because that is a program under which people that do overstay their visa, we are able to identify them. If there's someone short of their leaving the country and producing an expired visa, is there any program currently in effect to identify people who have perhaps melted into the countryside? Or otherwise come here illegally, identify who those people are?

MR. HUTCHINSON: So if they overstay their visa now, can we identify who they are in this country?

SEN. CORNYN: Or where they live?

MR. HUTCHINSON: It's an ineffective system. There are some ways to try to do that, but it is an ineffective system and that's the reason for US-VISIT, to give us a greater capability in identifying and having information on those that may overstay their visas.

SEN. CORNYN: I want you to understand, again, I'm not being critical of your efforts. I think they are important, and I think they are headed in the right direction. But I am concerned that we not fool ourselves into thinking that we are dealing with the monumental challenges that confront this nation when it comes to immigration issues. Putting some people on a watch list is important if we have intelligence that they are either a terrorist or potential threat to this nation, but if we're going to be serious about enforcing our immigration laws, I worry, for example, about the 300,000 people who are under final orders of deportation and we simply don't know where they are.

And also the other challenges that I learned a little bit more about in the trip that I mentioned in August, along the U.S. Mexican border, where the going rate for human smuggling for a Mexican national is roughly $1,500. For somebody from other parts of the country that might be of particular concern, the going rate is somewhere in the order of 10 times that. But still we have a hugely porous border, not withstanding our best efforts. And I just want to make sure that our focus, as important as it is, remains on security and not -- doesn't have unintentional impact.

For example, when I was in McAllen recently I had a number of people raise a concern about the laser visa program, which is part of the US-VISIT program so we can identify when people come in and then when they leave. But rather than identifying terrorists, what's happening is people that have families on both sides of the borders, conduct business, spend money in the United States, own property literally on both sides of the borders, that this has had perhaps an unintentional economic impact on commerce there along the border, rather than identify terrorists or perhaps threats to our country.

And so what that says to me is, I think we need to have a vision or a concept of what we're about, certainly counterterrorism is the most pressing concern, but all of this just says to me that we need to make sure that our programs are designed to address the threat and not people who perhaps are coming to this country from which we receive a net benefit, either because of commerce, they want to come here to work, or the like.

Let me just ask in the time I have remaining, I know the lateral repatriation issue, Secretary Hutchinson, has been a big concern in my part of the country. I understand the impulse that motivated it, and that was to try to make sure that immigrants who came across the Arizona desert didn't die in the process, or once they were captured were returned to a place where perhaps if they tried to come across illegally they would not be stranded in the desert and perhaps suffer death.

But it's caused a lot of concern in Texas, for example, where immigrants who come across from Mexico into Arizona are put on a plane and flown to Harlingen and places like that, and then repatriated across the Texas border. I understand this was a pilot project that ends today, is my notation. Could you just speak to the experience or lessons perhaps you've learned so far and the concerns that have been raised, and how you might like to respond to those concerns?

MR. HUTCHINSON: Well, the first point would be that we probably need to do a better job of communicating with the elected officials, who have contacted us and contacted you. I did send a team down to meet with the mayors, the law enforcement officials, and explain more appropriately what we're doing, listen to their concerns and get their thoughts. The pilot project is expiring and we will evaluate first of all whether this has caused any additional burden on the local community.

You know, looking at the arrest record, the emergency room admissions, see if we've had an impact that we do not intend, would not want to cause on the receiving end. Secondly, we would want to monitor to the extent we can those that we repatriated across the border and whether they did return or whether we were successful in causing them to go back to their home cities.

So we're going to monitor the results of this and we do not want to increase the burden on the local communities there in Texas or anywhere else that we may repatriate the citizens from another area.

It was, I believe -- the preliminary information is that it's been successful in saving lives, which, you know, is pretty good. Secondly, I think that we have broken up that cycle of just returning them to their human smugglers that send them back across. But we want to look at the burden on the community, make sure that is not burdensome and that we can address it if that is a problem.

SEN. CORNYN: Let me just ask, Ms. Harty, under current law as I understand it, under the Immigration Nationality Act, visa revocation is not itself sufficient for removal of an immigrant. Is that your understanding as well?

MS. HARTY: We certainly have seen instances, sir, where a visa has been revoked or prudentially revoked, that is, at times we will develop information after the fact about a given individual, we always run that information through our system to see if somebody has already been issued a visa in that name. There are some times when that revocation is done prudentially because we are not certain beyond a shadow of a doubt that the person who has received the visa is in fact the subject of the new information.

But we will prudentially revoke and then we will make that information available to our partners at DHS so that we can inform ports of entries in case this person is not already in the States. So there are in fact cases where a prudential revocation might not immediately result in somebody being removed from the United States. It may be done prudentially just to make us take a very careful and considerate look at the individual, who may or may not be the subject of the adverse information we've acquired.

We have talked about this concept, knowing that it has been the subject of other hearings, and we're going to work very carefully together to make sure we sew up the entire system just as tightly as we can, to make sure that both State and DHS understand exactly the same things.

SEN. CORNYN: Well, look, there are impediments to our enforcing our immigration and visa laws like that, which would not authorize the United States government to deport somebody whose visa has expired or been revoked for any reason. I know I certainly would like to know what we can do to address that. Finally, let me just say that for myself and I'm sure others, that we want to do anything and everything we can to work together with you. This is not a game of gotcha or criticizing people who perhaps, as Secretary Hutchinson said, this MOU was born three days ago, and we know the DHS was born March 1st.

We got a lot of history, a lot of things that need to be addressed, and I know that this committee is interested in working with you to try to find solutions so the American people can be safe and so respect for our laws, all our laws, can be restored. Thank you.