Senate Finance Committee Holds A Hearing on Homeland Security and Terrorism Threats From Document Fraud, Identity Theft and Social Security Number Mis

Senate Finance Committee Holds A Hearing on Homeland Security and Terrorism Threats From Document Fraud, Identity Theft and Social Security Number Misuse

GRASSLEY:
I want to thank everybody for their patience and for coming to this very important hearing. This Finance Committee oversight hearing will examine the problems of document fraud, identity theft and Social Security number misuse. We will also look into the implications for terrorism and for homeland security.

Identity theft and document fraud is about more than just bad credit ratings or underage drinking. Identity theft and document fraud are also a threat to our national security.

Two years ago, 19 hijackers attacked our nation in a suicide plot that killed thousands. These terrorists had lived among us, sometimes for years, leaving and entering the country repeatedly.

To plan, to plot and to carry out their mission, they needed valid identification. These hijackers used a variety of means to obtain identification, some of them even living under their very own names.

Unfortunately, getting this cover was not much of a challenge, because we know that they slipped onboard airplanes and turned those planes into missiles. There are sleeper cells still lurking in this country, plotting to harm us and providing support for future attacks.

Some have been arrested. Some are under surveillance. And some are still at large.

Even in America's heartland, even in my own state of Iowa, document fraud and identity theft and terrorism are a concern.
Law enforcement officials in Iowa are seeing more and more document fraud and identity theft.

These terrorists are alias among us, living openly but falsely, threatening our lives and our security. Identity theft and document fraud are far too easy to commit for Americans to feel safe.

Our national security is at stake. Our government needs to do more to protect us.

We have to face the fact that driver's licenses and that Social Security numbers have become the de facto national identifiers.
Without these, you can't really function in American society.

With them, you can open bank accounts, buy a gun, get a credit card, take flight lessons. And you can board airplanes.

Our government recognizes the problem of identity theft and of document fraud. But the question today, two years after our attacks of 9/11: is our government doing enough about this problem? How safe are we?

How easy is it to obtain valid identity documents under an alias? How secure is the Social Security number and the driver's license process? How easy is it to make counterfeit documents that work?

I don't think anyone here is going to like the answer. I don't know that I do.

We have a lot of witnesses here today to testify and to answer these questions. And before we hear from our first panel, I would call on Senator Baucus for an opening statement. After that, we will call our first panel.

BREAK IN TRANSCRIPT

GRASSLEY:
Thank you, Senator Baucus. You and your staff have very much cooperated with us on this hearing and other oversight hearings. And I appreciate that very much.

To start our first panel, we're going to hear from Assistant Attorney General Richard Convertino. The other witness, who is a federal prisoner, also should be brought out just a little bit later.

Mr. Convertino is the lead federal prosecutor in the Eastern District, Michigan. And he handled the Detroit Sleeper Cell Case. This case led to the first terrorism conviction since 9/11. And it's a flagship in the Justice Department's war on terror.

The FBI and the U.S. Attorney's Office in Eastern District, Michigan did an excellent job on this case, putting three terrorists in jail and protecting our nation. In particular, I would like to congratulate you, Mr. Convertino, and also the other prosecutor on the case, Keith Corbett, as well as your support staff and the case agents for our FBI.

This case was a tough one. But they use an aggressive approach. It paid off with a conviction of three terrorist suspects.
Mr. Convertino, I think you are a model public servant. And as far as I am concerned, you should be hailed as a hero.
I have a list of your professional accomplishments, which I want to enter into the record.

I think the attorney general's words on the day of the guilty convictions are worth repeating. He said—and so I quote Attorney General Ashcroft—"Today's conviction sends a clear message. The Department of Justice will work diligently to detect, disrupt, dismantle the activities of terrorist cells in the United States and abroad."

"Today's verdict reaffirms our commitment to pursuing aggressively the evidence, wherever it may lead. I congratulate the prosecutors,"—so that would include you, Mr. Convertino—"and agents who worked tirelessly on that particular case." End of quote from Ashcroft.

I think Attorney General Ashcroft's words are right on the mark. This case began when the FBI raided an apartment in Detroit on September 17, 2001. Three suspects were arrested on document and identity fraud; a fourth suspect arrested later.

Many fraudulent documents were found in the apartment, including passports, driver's licenses, airport passes, Social Security cards. The suspects were later indicted on terrorism charges.

Mr. Convertino is going to give us details of this case. But I can tell you that this was definitely a serious terrorist group.
Three defendants were convicted in June and now are facing years behind bars.

This investigation is a case study in the dangers of document and identity fraud and how it is so connected to our terrorism problems.

Before I go any further, I also would note several issues for the record. It is unusual to have an assistant U.S. attorney testify before any congressional committee. However, there is precedent for this, which I will explain.

But first, I want to note that there are extraordinary reasons why this committee required this witness' testimony and why this committee issued subpoena for him to testify. No one is in a better position that Mr. Convertino to make the Congress and the public aware of the dangers of document and identity fraud and terrorism.

Because of that, this committee issued a subpoena to Mr. Convertino, which he was bound to obey and comply with. Mr. Convertino is not going to tell us anything today that is not on the public record, either in court documents or news reports.
He is here merely to put this all in context and explain it all to us as committee members. Mr. Convertino is the last person who would jeopardize his own criminal case. And he will not say anything today to do that.

Mr. Convertino, if you or other witnesses are asked a question by any member of this committee that may jeopardize your case, all you have to do is say so and we understand. I do understand how sensitive it is to bring a line attorney before the committee.

There is always a risk of politicizing a case. Nobody on this committee is more sensitive to that than I am, having served on the Judiciary Committee since my coming to the Senate.

The only time such extraordinary circumstances are warranted is when it is in the public interest to know about the threats to our own safety. The public does need to know about the dangers of document and identity fraud and about their links to terrorism. This is clearly one of those times.

As for congressional precedent for line attorneys to testify, I have had some involvement. In 2000, the Judiciary Committee was investigating the handling of the Peter Lee espionage case, stemming from theft of nuclear secrets from our weapons labs.

Line attorneys from the Justice Department were subpoenaed to testify for several of those hearings. I also want to note that federal law prohibits any retaliation or any discrimination against any person who testifies to the Congress. Committing those acts, I would remind everybody, is a criminal violation of 18 USC, Section 1505.

I certainly don't expect there to be repercussions because Mr. Convertino is here to explain how the Justice Department is wining the war on terrorism. But just in case someone is thinking about retaliation, this committee is not going to tolerate it.
We take seriously the protection of our witnesses.

Also on the panel is a prisoner in federal custody who was a witness in the Detroit case. Josef Hmimssa pled guilty to fraud charges and was a cooperating witness for the government and testified against terrorists.

Hmimssa became involved with a terrorist group that wanted Hmimssa to make false identity documents for them. He never did so. He never did become a full member of the terrorism cell. But he was associated with them.

He can provide an inside view of how they operate and what they wanted false identity documents for. Hmimssa was arrested in my home state of Iowa, Cedar Rapids, thanks to the good work of the Secret Service and the Cedar Rapids Police Department.

This shows that the document fraud connections to terrorism can be anywhere, even in small communities in a rural state.

Let me also take a moment and note for the record that Hmimssa was not charged with terrorism. He was indicted on fraud charges in connection with fake documents that he made for the suspects. And he pled guilty to fraud charges, not terrorism charges.

I also understand that Hmimssa has cooperated with the prosecution. And his testimony was key for the government's victory.

He has chosen to answer our questions today so that we can find out how simple it is to commit identity theft and document fraud, how simple it is to circumvent the system. On the other hand, Hmimssa is a criminal. But he is not a terrorist.

He is paying and will pay for his crimes. He has made mistakes. And he realizes that. And now he is trying to help us fix it.
Hmimssa is not on trial here today. He has agreed to help this committee. He has agreed to help the Congress and the public address the national security threat of identity theft and document fraud.

Hmimssa is not going to provide formal testimony. Instead, he will answer our questions about what he did and how he did it. He is testifying behind a screen, for security reasons.

Committee staff has conducted an interview with Hmimssa. And a summary of that interview will be entered into the record as an exhibit. And I would ask, without objection, that that be done at this point.

Hmimssa is under tight security. I ask the audience to remain seated and quiet during the session of the hearing. We can't have anyone come or leave at that particular time.

Mr. Convertino, we will begin with your testimony. First, I want to ask if Senator Baucus has anything to say at this point before we proceed.

After that, though, we will ask you questions. Once we finish that, the marshals will bring in Hmimssa into the room for
questions.

Senator Baucus, do you have anything you want to say?

BREAK IN TRANSCRIPT

GRASSLEY:
Was there misleading or false identity information in the day planner found in the terrorists' apartment?

CONVERTINO:
There was a, what Special Agent George characterized as a security plan built into the possible discovery of the day planner, and that is the use of a mentally incompetent person by the name of Ali Mohammed Ahmed, who signed several of the pages in the day planner at the direction of the defendants.

Mr. Ali Mohammed Ahmed was severely mentally incompetent, was cared for by his brother and his father and, according to the testimony of his brother, was unable to function on his own. In fact, the only thing he could do was sign his name.
And he would do anything for a cigarette.

There were also other witnesses, during the course of the trial, that came forward and testified, who also were mentally incompetent, who were sought out by the defendants and who were asked to sign on to various documents, in order to protect the defendants if those documents were discovered, as was the defense at trial that the day planner belonged to someone who as just jotting down incoherent notes.

So the defense was built in—expertly, I think, -- during the course of the use of the documents and the people who were sought out to obtain false documents for the defendants.

GRASSLEY:
What types of equipment were used to create false documents, in this specific case?

CONVERTINO:
Mr. Chairman, probably the best person to answer that would be Youssef Hmimssa. But I am aware, through the testimony at trial, that very simple things were used to create very accurate and very good false documentation.

Mr. Hmimssa purchased items at Wal-Mart, OfficeMax, that kind of place to make what would appear to be very convincing false documentations that were, in fact, very passable, to the point of using those documents to travel and receive other legitimate documentation.

GRASSLEY:
How many aliases and bank accounts did the cell leader have?

CONVERTINO:
We have no idea, Mr. Chairman. There just would be too many to count. We only know of a very small number.

GRASSLEY:
How did the defendants communicate among themselves and with other terrorists?

CONVERTINO:
The cell leader, Elmardoudi, had become very proficient at what is known as "shoulder surfing," or stealing phone card numbers from people at airports, would pass those phone card numbers on. And then the defendants and others would use those phone cards to call switching stations in Europe.

And so if defendant one wanted to contact defendant two and they are one apartment away in the same town, they would call, through Mr. Elmardoudi, Europe, Western Europe, could travel all over through the European continent and come back to that very apartment right next door and be totally untraceable. That was the testimony at trial.

GRASSLEY:
This will be my last question. And then Senator Baucus will ask.

What was the impact when authorities discovered the day planner sketches at the Turkish air base? And I would like to have you describe how the sketches were accurate or how you knew they were accurate.

CONVERTINO:
I knew they were accurate in my own mind because I went to Turkey and I went to Amman, Jordan. And I, along with Special Agent Mike Thomas, were able to compare the sketches in the day planner with what we saw.

We climbed a rope to the top of that factory, both of us, along with the Air Force personnel, and were able to hold copies of what we had from the day planner and oversee the air base and had a clear and unobstructed view of the airplanes, of their takeoff pattern, of the hardened bunker that Lieutenant Colonel Peterson (ph) said is depicted on the day planner in the lower corner.

Special Agent Thomas testified about what he personally observed while he was in Turkey and while he was in Amman, Jordan regarding those particular sites, as well as experts from both of those countries. And to answer your first question . .

GRASSLEY:
Yes.

CONVERTINO:
The operations group commander for Operation Northern Watch revised the flight approach and the departure to counter any possible shoulder-fired missile attacks, as a result of having received copies of the day planner.

BREAK IN TRANSCRIPT

GRASSLEY:
This will be my last question. And then Senator Baucus will ask.

What was the impact when authorities discovered the day planner sketches at the Turkish air base? And I would like to have you describe how the sketches were accurate or how you knew they were accurate.

CONVERTINO:
I knew they were accurate in my own mind because I went to Turkey and I went to Amman, Jordan. And I, along with Special Agent Mike Thomas, were able to compare the sketches in the day planner with what we saw.

We climbed a rope to the top of that factory, both of us, along with the Air Force personnel, and were able to hold copies of what we had from the day planner and oversee the air base and had a clear and unobstructed view of the airplanes, of their takeoff pattern, of the hardened bunker that Lieutenant Colonel Peterson (ph) said is depicted on the day planner in the lower corner.

Special Agent Thomas testified about what he personally observed while he was in Turkey and while he was in Amman, Jordan regarding those particular sites, as well as experts from both of those countries. And to answer your first question . .

GRASSLEY:
Yes.

CONVERTINO:
The operations group commander for Operation Northern Watch revised the flight approach and the departure to counter any possible shoulder-fired missile attacks, as a result of having received copies of the day planner.

BREAK IN TRANSCRIPT

GRASSLEY:
OK. I thank you.

Now I reminded everybody that when we bring Mr. Hmimssa in that nobody can leave or enter the room during this phase of the hearing. Cameras will have to be turned off and pointed down while he comes in. And would we bring in Mr. Hmimssa at this point, then?

Mr. Hmimssa, I thank you for agreeing to be here today. We are going to ask you some questions about your involvement in the case and how you made false identity documents. I am going to ask questions for five to seven minutes and then I would turn it over to Senator Baucus if he has questions and then other senators that want to be involved in this.

Mr. Hmimssa, thank you for cooperating with the committee. Would you please describe the process by which you would create a false identity residing illegally in the country?

HMIMSSA:
First of all, I need a passport. I need a passport and I need to put a visa on the passport, then make this person go and apply for a Social Security card at Social Security Administration.

GRASSLEY:
I'm sorry, Mr. Hmimssa, could you speak up a little? You might have to bring the microphone a little closer. I think the microphone was on. It's a case of having—you may have to speak—have it right up to your mouth.

HMIMSSA:
OK. First of all, I need a passport. Then using the passport, a foreign passport, using that passport, I need a visa—that's a sticker that I'm going to put on the visa—and have this person go and apply for a Social Security card at Social Security Administration.

And once he gets the card in the mail, within like 10 days, he will get the card, along with the passport, and go and apply for a driver's license or ID at the Secretary of State.

GRASSLEY:
I see. When you came to the United States—and I believe that was in 1994 -- how did you gain entry into the country?
And how did you get the documents that you needed to enter the United States?

HMIMSSA:
I was living in Europe. So I bought a French passport and I came to the United States as a French. So I get there, I get in Chicago in 1994. And I was, at that time, legally.

Then I went and I applied for a Social Security card. I got it in the mail. I went and I applied for a driver's license and ID in Illinois.

BAUCUS:
Sir, how did you get your French passport?

HMIMSSA:
I bought the French passport from black market in Europe.

BAUCUS:
Thank you.

GRASSLEY:
Did you finish your statement on my second question?

HMIMSSA:
Yes, sir. I did.

GRASSLEY:
OK. Once you got here, what documents did you get to establish yourself in Chicago? And how did you get those documents?

HMIMSSA:
As I said, I get to the United States using the French passport. Once I get to the country, I went to the Social Security Administration and I applied for a Social Security card. And I applied for it. Within 10 days, I got it in the mail.
Using that card, along with the passport, I went to the Secretary of State in Illinois and I got ID and a driver's license.

GRASSLEY:
Can you explain in more detail how you got your Social Security number? It's my understanding that you got that Social Security number under the name of Patrick Vuillaume?

HMIMSSA:
Yes, that's right, Patrick Vuillaume. The passport that, as I said, I bought from the black market, which is a fake passport.
The only thing is not fake is my picture on it. The name, the number, everything is fake. So it is under the name of Patrick Vuillaume.

GRASSLEY:
OK. Could you explain in detail how you got the Illinois driver's license under that same name?

HMIMSSA:
Yes, sir. Once I get to the country under Patrick Vuillaume, using the French passport, I went to the Social Security Administration and I applied for a Social Security card.

I was asked some questions. I answered those questions. And after 10 days, I get a Social Security card in the mail.

I took the Social Security card, the one I get in the mail, with my passport and a document or a form that is called I-94 to the Secretary of State in Illinois. And I get ID.

Then I went and I took the exam, driving test and writing test. And I passed. And I get a driver's license, Illinois driver's license, under the name Patrick Vuillaume.

GRASSLEY:
OK. And then how did you further obtain a license to drive a taxi?

HMIMSSA:
I went to the college. I took classes, all under Patrick Vuillaume. And I went to City of Chicago. I took exam, driving exam.
And I passed that exam. And I get a license.

GRASSLEY:
And it's my understanding you also were able to open a banking account. How about that?

HMIMSSA:
Yes. Under Patrick Vuillaume, I opened a bank account in Chicago.

GRASSLEY:
OK. How did you receive educational training under the names that you used?

HMIMSSA:
I just went to the college. It's all under Patrick Vuillaume. And I took classes. So that's the name I was using the whole time.

GRASSLEY:
OK. And please explain the process for how you obtained a genuine U.S. passport under the name of Edgardo Colona (ph). Is that right?

HMIMSSA:
Yes, Edgardo Colona (ph).

GRASSLEY:
How did you get a passport under yet another name?

HMIMSSA:
While I was staying in Chicago for over two years, I went to go back home to see my family. So I went to get a passport. So I could not use that French passport.

So I bought American birth certificate and Social Security card from black market, from someone who was able to give me those documents for some money. So using those documents, the birth certificate and Social Security card under a different name, I went to the Secretary of State and I get ID and driver's license, using that ID.

And along with the birth certificate, I went to post office and I applied for a passport. And I get it in the mail after a few days, 10 days.

GRASSLEY:
OK. So then you got an Illinois driver's license then yet again under the name of Edgardo Colona (ph)?

HMIMSSA:
Yes.

GRASSLEY:
And then that in turn was used to get the passport?

HMIMSSA:
Yes, sir.

GRASSLEY:
What happened that made you stop using the passport under the name of Edgardo Colona (ph)?

HMIMSSA:
I pay taxes under that name. I was trying to leave under that name because it's legal. It's a passport, you know? It's like leaving like citizen.

And I pay taxes under that name. Then I get a letter from the IRS that it says the number that you pay taxes with it, Social Security number that you pay taxes with it, was used by another taxpayer.
So obviously, that person who sold me the document is still using his number.

GRASSLEY:
What is the importance of the I-94 form? And what did you do with these forms?

HMIMSSA:
With the I-94, I was able to create a blank I-94 using the computer and a scanner and a printer. And that document, along with the passport and visa, I go to Social Security Administration and apply for Social Security card or send someone to apply for Social Security card.

GRASSLEY:
My time is up now. So Senator Baucus?

BREAK IN TRANSCRIPT

GRASSLEY:
Mr. Hutchinson, I ask this question in light of the fact that we all have to be realistic. You're in a new department with a new drive to protect the homeland.

But as I see it, as I think we would all agree, it's a pretty scary scenario laid out here. Your directorate is in charge of a lot of the areas that Mr. Malfi just talked about, especially border and airports, or maybe everything that the whole General Accounting Office report deals with.

If the GAO could do all of these things, how can we be sure that your department can stop terrorists from doing it?

HUTCHINSON:
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And the GAO certainly pointed up some areas of great concern. The investigation was completed prior to the stand up of the department and bringing on the 22 agencies.

But I will certainly recognize that it is a problem that is ongoing and a concern that we have today. I think the American public should be assured, first of all, that the steps that Secretary Ridge took in combining our inspection forces on the border will enhance our training capability. And we will be able to do a better job.

There is two things that I think are important for Congress and the administration to work on together. One is continued implementation of the US-VISIT, in which we can have biometric capability for entry into our country and exit that will assure an identity and will help us to avoid this type of document fraud.

Secondly, I think that we have to look at the 240 different types of state driver's licenses that our inspectors are expected to be expert on. Do we need to have more restricted travel documents, and which we can focus our training, we can focus our security measures on?

And so those are policy changes, as well as implementation that we will continue to work with Congress to carry out.

GRASSLEY:
OK. Well then, to follow up and to be more specific in my question to you, could you assure the committee that all these areas, that they are all now secure? And that the General Accounting Office could not penetrate those as they have demonstrated that they have in the past?

HUTCHINSON:
Can I guarantee that each one of our 45,000 inspectors along the border could detect every driver's license that presented as to whether it is a legitimate driver's license or a fraudulent driver's license? I can't give the committee that assurance.

Obviously, we are working every day to have training to eliminate the fraud and to detect the fraud. But we are addressing it both in terms of the training, examination of the policy, whether we should require more stringent requirements. We need to work with Congress on that.

And then thirdly, the implementation of a biometric feature. But until we address those issues in a broad fashion, document fraud will continue to be a problem for us.

GRASSLEY:
Let me suggest to you that if you aren't sure that it can be done, we'll soon find out, because I know that the General Accounting Offices have operations underway. So we're going to find out if they can be penetrated.

Let me say to you, just as a final reminder, that I know your mission is very difficult. It's vitally important. But if the General Accounting Office can do this, obviously terrorists can do it.

Let me ask you this question, Mr. Hutchinson, I know that the issuing of driver's licenses is a function of state government. But it also is a homeland security issue and, as we have seen, a big vulnerability.

If your department can work with state and local first responders, I'm sure that you could work with the Department of Motor Vehicle offices. Could you tell me if your department is working with states to shore this up? And if so, what has been done thus far?

HUTCHINSON:
We are certainly encouraging more restrictive use of state driver's licenses, more security features. And we are trying to develop our capability to have more security features as these are presented at our borders.

So we are working with them. We pledge to work more aggressively with them. But simultaneously with that, we have to look at our policy issues and less reliance upon these documents.

And Mr. Chairman, I understand that GAO might be out there presenting fraudulent documents. But the policy right now is that they don't even have to present a document. If they come in and the inspector is satisfied that they are U.S. citizens by oral declaration, they can be admitted under our present policy.

And driver's license is, as a matter of policy, looked at. But there is a serious examination of these overriding policies that we want to engage in as well.

BREAK IN TRANSCRIPT

GRASSLEY:
Well, one of the things I would like to have you respond to is whether or not there has been any other FBI terrorism cases that have led to jury convictions besides the Detroit case?

PISTOLE:
I do not believe so. I believe all the other convictions have been by guilty plea. And I will check on that to ensure.

GRASSLEY:
OK. And correct it if it needs correcting.

Mr. Cramer, based on what you have heard the prisoner testify about before, does anything he said about making false documents surprise you? Or is this what you expected?

CRAMER:
It's pretty much what I expected, senator. Nothing really surprises us at this point. The only thing that continues to surprise us is that it really is so easy to do this.

One of the problems that we haven't addressed, which I know the Social Security system does do a positive check in one sense, is if I steal someone's identity, I have their true name, Social Security number and date of birth. And I create a counterfeit document with that information.

Then I can use that, bring it into a Motor Vehicle Department that does check with Social Security. And it will pass. It will be fine because that is a true person.

It's not me. And now I have an identification, a true identification document, issued in someone else's name. So that's just another piece of this.

GRASSLEY:
Mr. O'Carroll, I thought your presentation about fraudulent visa was very good. And it was probably almost too good. But what can law enforcement agencies like yours and the FBI do to stop people like Hmimssa from making these documents?

And I would also ask Mr. Pistole, when he is done, I would like your answer on the same subject. Then that's my last question.

O'CARROLL:
Mr. Chairman, one of the things that we feel would be the best way to prevent this would be by cross-verification, so that when somebody—in the case what we are doing now with 100 percent verification with BICE, where now anybody, if they use a counterfeit visa, when we are checking the documents on it, we will be then verifying it with another agency. And in that way, we will be able to determine whether or not the visa was counterfeit or not.

So we feel, by that type of comparison of information on it and the sharing of information between law enforcement agencies, we should have a much better chance of being able to use quality of the documents and prevent the counterfeiting of them.

GRASSLEY:
And how about you, Mr. Pistole?

PISTOLE:
Yes, Mr. Chairman. I would agree with what Mr. O'Carroll stated. In addition, I think the two-prong approach of improvements in technology to get away from document-driven verification system and get into biometrics and different aspects there, coupled with the information sharing from the law enforcement and intelligence community perspective domestically through the Joint Terrorism Task Forces through the latch up of information.

I think that the committee is aware we have created a national Joint Terrorism Task Force with 32 agencies, federal agencies and state agencies, onus here in D.C. We have 66 Joint Terrorism Task Forces around the country with another 26 being created. It's through that sharing of information that I think we stand the best success of succeeding in the war on terrorism.

BREAK IN TRANSCRIPT

GRASSLEY:
Most of the agencies that you have made contact with and obviously talking about what you consider mutual problems between states and federal, have you found the cooperation like you would expect it to be under the circumstances of the war on terrorism and the concern about terrorism and obviously fake documents? Or do you think that there is something the federal government should be more responsive to entreaties like yours?

LEWIS:
I think we would hope that there would be more responsiveness. This has been going on. We have been on this podium probably ever since 9/11. And we really did spend a year, probably a year-and-a-half, defending our position against those who thought we were trying to do more than just correct a driver licensing process that's broken today.

We have wasted a year-and-a-half. And we did not have the support or the political will of Congress, nor the state legislatures at that time.

I'm pleased to say that that is changing. The fact that I am sitting here before you today says that that is changing. The fact that we have had government officials all talking about a problem that has basis with the application and the processing of the driver's license, as well as other ID documents, it tells me that we have made progress.

There is still more to be done, in a partnership fashion, not just the states, but in collaboration with the federal government.

GRASSLEY:
Well, considering the issues that have been laid out here today and the awakening that this hearing ought to provide everybody—I can only speak for myself—but the extent to which I or my staff can be helped in being a conduit between your organization and any federal agency, please let me know.

LEWIS:
Thank you.

GRASSLEY:
I have one last question, that would be to both of you. I know that there are legislative proposals. But is there anything that federal agencies can do on their own initiative right now to make driver's licenses more secure, even though states are in charge of that?

LEWIS:
I would like to go first, if I may? I think there's a lot of things you can do. One is to recognize that there is a problem.

I think we have all had—many of us have had our heads in the sand that the problem even exists. I really do applaud the committee and Congress for conducting this GAO investigation because I think it does provide evidence—credible evidence—that in fact a problem does exist.

I think that's the first thing, the political will—asking the states, talking to the governors of your states and the state legislatures to take this issue seriously. I think the development of some type of a grant program, an incentive program for the states that are moving toward or to encourage them to do those things that goes a long way to improve the system, might be another step in the right direction as well.