MSNBC Hardball with Chris Matthews - Transcript

MSNBC Hardball with Chris Matthews - Transcript

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MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL. Last week the House of Representatives passed a resolution that supported the Israeli attack against Hezbollah up in Lebanon. Although Israel says its committed to minimizing civilian loss, some lawmakers call for stronger language in protecting innocence in Lebanon, language that was not in the final version on the resolution.

Republican Congressman Darrell Issa was one of those lawmakers trying to get that language put in. And we‘re going to talk about that right now. Also joining us is Eliot Engel from New York who says the wording wasn‘t necessary at all.

Let‘s talk about it. Why was it necessary, Congressman Issa for the United States Congress in saluting Israeli‘s right to defend itself, with language that said, "Oh, by the way, we don‘t trust you to protect civilians, so we‘re telling you to do that in these attacks on Lebanon?"

REP. DARRELL ISSA ®, CALIFORNIA: Well it was important to have that language, because the Lebanese people voted, went to the streets, rioted after Rafik Hariri was assassinated, in what became known as the Cedar Revolution.

They stood up against the tyranny of the Syrians, the occupation of the Syrians, and they voted in what‘s called the Hariri bloc, which is an anti-Hezbollah block. So the fact was and is that the Lebanese people by and large reject Hezbollah. You‘ve got to make sure that in a war you don‘t create new enemies in addition to defeating your old enemies. Nothing more, nothing less needed to be done.

MATTHEWS: So even though 35 percent of Lebanon is Maronite Christian, 35 percent is Shia, you say that as a whole the country as a whole doesn‘t support Hezbollah?

ISSA: Oh absolutely it doesn‘t. I mean, the Hariri bloc controls parliament. That‘s why you‘ve got a moderate non-Hezbollah government there that the United States—Condi Rice went to the great effort to meet with, because in fact that‘s a democracy—democracy without an army, but a democracy.

MATTHEWS: Congressman, what‘s wrong with putting in language that supports American values?

REP. ELIOT ENGEL (D), NEW YORK: Well, let‘s first of all remember that the final—the decision for that resolution—the wording was the Republican leadership. If that language that my colleague wanted in, would have been in the resolution, we all still would have voted for it. I mean, I grieve for Lebanon, and I think Lebanon has been captive by Hezbollah, and I think Hezbollah has been poison for both Israel and Lebanon.

So we certainly care about civilian tragedies and civilian casualties, but I think that the purpose of the resolution was to voice strong support that for Israel and its fight against terrorism. Let‘s remember how this started. Israel was attacked by Hezbollah. They had two of their soldiers killed and more captured, and driven—dragged across the borders. And so we wanted to show that we stand with Israel in its war against terror. That was the thrust of the resolution. But I certainly think that civilians, any civilians, that are injured or maimed or killed—our hearts go out to them. I think Israel is taking pains to try to minimize civilian casualty, but ...

MATTHEWS: ... Why is the world taking the side of Lebanon?

ENGEL: Well the world always goes against Israel. This is the problem.

ISSA: No Eliot, come on.

ENGEL: This is why the United States needs to stand by Israel. We‘re the only friend she has. When people say we should be honest brokers, I think we should stand by our democratic friend, Israel, who can‘t get a fair shake from the United Nations.

MATTHEWS: But there are a lot of democratic countries in the world who don‘t take our position.

ENGEL: Well, but we take the position what is good for America, and I think standing with our friend Israel is good for America. Now by the way, Lebanon is a friend and I believe that if Hezbollah would just go away or if Israel is allowed to do what it needs to do to make sure Hezbollah goes away or does not rear its ugly head, I think that Israel and Lebanon would get along fine. Now there is no quarrel between the Israelis and the Lebanese, and it‘s just Hezbollah that is a poison and a cancer on Lebanon.

MATTHEWS: Put some context to this congressman, from a Lebanese-American, a Lebanese point of view. We have seen a country that has tried to come back to life and it has come back to life, thanks to Hariri, thanks to the investments he made, the contributions he made as leader of that country. And now we look on television, and we see it looks like Dresden. How can you say that is a careful bombing campaign?

ISSA: Well it‘s not a careful bombing campaign. I support—first of all, the resolution that I put in, 926, started off first and foremost with in fact denouncing what Hezbollah had done, denouncing what they are, who they are and certainly who they‘re backed by, Iran and Damascus.

However, you know, I have to take exception with Eliot. I think he says he cares about Lebanon, but you know, his words, his quote, "I don‘t want to be a honest broker. I want to be a friend to the only democratic government in the Middle East."

That‘s a problem. Israel is a democracy. Israel is a democracy with an army. Lebanon is a democracy, and one that we support but we have not provided them the tools to eliminate Hezbollah. I applaud Israel for going in to go after Hezbollah, but at the same time, we have a obligation.

We provided many of those weapons that are dropping all over Lebanon. And when they drop on the fuel tanks on Lebanon‘s main airport, after the airport was already defeated from landing anything, nobody in the world had a doubt that those tanks were bombed to create fireworks. They were bombed to send a message, but unfortunately it sends a message to everybody in Lebanon, not just Hezbollah. Hezbollah does not have airplanes. Hezbollah has Katyushas and Hezbollah has RPGs down at the border and I applaud Israel for going after them. But they have to be constrained.

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