MSNBC Hardball with Chris Matthews - Transcript

MSNBC Hardball with Chris Matthews - Transcript

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O‘DONNELL: Welcome back to HARDBALL.

Today‘s gruesome news of two U.S. soldiers killed and mutilated comes as Congress takes on a fierce, high stakes fight over what to do about the war in Iraq. Here to dig into this debate is Texas Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison, and Illinois Senator Dick Durbin.

Let me first go to you, Senator Durbin. Why are the Democrats divided in their plan about what to do in Iraq?

SEN. RICHARD DURBIN (D), ILLINOIS: I think we understand that the current strategy is not working well. There‘s no end in sight. As of today, this morning, we‘ve lost 2,502 of our best and bravest soldiers, we‘ve spent over $300 billion. We‘ve been in this war for over three years, and there is no plan to bring it to an end.

We feel—I think most of us on the Democratic side, that regardless of whether we pick a specific date for a timetable or not, it is time to let the Iraqis know that they have to stand and defend their own country so that American soldiers can start to come home.

O‘DONNELL: Well, then do you support a timetable for withdrawal? First Senator Kerry said December 31st, now he says July 2007. Do you support that there should be a date certain when U.S. troops are out of Iraq?

DURBIN: I think we should have a reasonable timetable. There should be some considerations there, if circumstances arise, that would make a difference. But by and large, I think the Iraqis have to understand, now that they‘ve trained 264,000 soldiers with our help, at our expense, that they have to stand and defend their own country.

O‘DONNELL: But the question does exist out there, where does this date of July 2007 come from? Is something happening in July 2007 that the rest us don‘t know about? What‘s happening in July of that year that should mean that U.S. troops should come home?

DURBIN: It‘s a year from now. It also means that if we are not more fortunate than we were in the last year, over 500 American soldiers will give their lives in Iraq during that period of time. We will spend another $90 billion or $100 billion in that country. And many of us feel that there reaches a point where the Iraqis have to take over and defend their own country.

We have done so much. We‘ve deposed their dictator, we dug him out of the hole in the ground and put him up for trial. We have given this country an opportunity for free elections and the establishment of a government. Now, if they want to move forward as a nation, they have to stand and be willing to defend their own country.

O‘DONNELL: Senator Hutchison, we‘ve heard the debate. Clearly, Republicans oppose such a timetable. They say it‘s cutting and running, it‘s retreating, it‘s surrendering from Iraq. But what about that argument that if we set a timetable, then that is a clear message to the Iraqi government and the Iraqi soldiers that we are training get it together, because we‘re not going to be around for that much longer.

SEN. KAY BAILEY HUTCHISON ®, TEXAS: Well, Norah, all of us look forward to the time that our troops can come home. There‘s no question about that. But if we set a timetable, we are saying to every ally we have ever had, we‘ll be with you until times get tough.

And worse, we are saying to the enemies, if you just make it hard for America, pretty soon our attention will flag and we will cut and run. That couldn‘t be a worse message from the United States of America.

O‘DONNELL: That being said, what is the exit strategy, because while the Democrats are divided on their plan and Republicans are united and calling the Democrats cut and run, what is the plan to get out of Iraq? What‘s the exit strategy?

HUTCHISON: The exit strategy is to see their government come together, to continue training their security forces, and to understand that they are victims too, the Iraqi people. When they blow up a police station, it‘s those men who are coming in to be a part of the security force that are being tagged again and again and again by the insurgents.

The insurgents are trying to keep them from having an economy by not letting them have the ability to set up shops and start building commerce. We start to see it through, so that we can show there is a stable government, that America keeps its word, and that a democracy can work with the three factions that are in Iraq. It has not been easy. These three factions have never worked together in the history of the world.

O‘DONNELL: Can I ask the both of you, because you‘re both senators in what is considered the world‘s most deliberative body and what you‘re engaged in in many ways is it a political debate that‘s going on in an election year where you have Republicans accusing Democrats of cutting and running. You now have Senator Kerry and the Democrats accusing the Republicans of lying and dying, that was the word he used today. Why is that this Senate can‘t recognize the importance of what needs to be done in Iraq, that you guys can‘t come together and agree on what should be done in Iraq? I‘ll start with you, Senator .

DURBIN: Three and a half years ago, we had an authorization of force resolution asked for by the Bush administration. They told us we would find weapons of mass destruction, which did not exist, nuclear weapons, which did not exist, and a link with al Qaeda and 9/11, which did not exist.

And then we were told that if we went in there, it was for the purpose of protecting the United States from Iraq and enforcing U.N. resolutions. We were there three years and three months later, everything has changed and 130,000 of our best and bravest young men and women are risking their lives every single day.

This administration has never had a clear strategy about how this war would end so our troops could come home. So it‘s understandable there‘s frustration in Congress. The president has driven this bus into a cul de sac and defies anyone to explain how we‘re going to get it out. It‘s not easy, but I think letting the Iraqis know that we have given them so much and now they must stand for their own future in their own country is the best way for us to start to come home.

O‘DONNELL: All right. Well we‘ll be back with Senators Hutchinson and Durbin to talk more about Iraq and North Korea. And later Republican Party chairman Ken Mehlman. How will his party hold on to power? Can debates over gay marriage and flag burning motivate the base enough to beat back anti-war feelings. You‘re watching HARDBALL, only on MSNBC.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O‘DONNELL: Welcome back to HARDBALL. We‘re back with Senators Kay Bailey Hutchison and Dick Durbin. I‘m going to go to you in a second Senator Hutchinson, but Senator Durbin, I must ask you, because it your party that is bringing up a resolution and an amendment calling for a phased redeployment or a withdrawal of U.S. troops from Iraq.

Given that in particular Senator Kerry, which is the only binding resolution, which would call for this specific timetable for July 2007, is only expected to get a handful of votes, isn‘t this really a fools errand? What‘s the point of handing the Republicans a political weapon to use against you? It‘s not even the support of the caucus behind this amendment.

DURBIN: The Senate is a deliberative body. There are differences of opinion. I‘m glad we have a chance to debate the different approaches that we should consider. But most of us, I think all of us on the Democratic side of the aisle agree that we need a better plan than we‘ve heard from the president.

You know when the president, Norah, was asked just a few weeks ago, how soon would these troops be coming home? He said, "I‘ll leave that to the next president." Now that‘s two and a half years from now, so at a minimum, I think the Bush administration envisions the troops remaining for that period of time. I think the American people have decided the Iraqis have to step up and really control their own fate much sooner.

O‘DONNELL: Senator Hutchison, you up there on the Hill as well as some other senators do get briefings from generals on the ground about what will happen in Iraq. We did hear from General Casey in the last several weeks, who says he does expect a gradual draw down of forces. Do you expect to see the number of U.S. troops in Iraq to fall to about 100,000 by year‘s end or below that?

HUTCHISON: Yes, I—well I‘m not putting a number on it, but I do expect us to start withdrawing troops at the appropriate time because we actually are training Iraqi soldiers and they are doing a much better job than they did in the beginning.

I have to go back to Senator Durbin‘s point, where he said that there‘s no evidence of al Qaeda in Iraq, that we shouldn‘t have gone in there. Remember what the president was looking at the time that we went in. He was looking at the worst attack on America since Pearl Harbor, 9/11. And he was looking at weapons of mass destruction in the hands of someone who could afford to deploy them and he wanted to go in after Saddam Hussein kicked the weapons inspectors out.

O‘DONNELL: Let me ask you about all that, we‘ve debated all that, we talked about that. Let me ask you about what Vice President Cheney said just the other day on FOX Radio. He said, "it‘s no accident that we‘ve not been attacked since 9/11 and that‘s in part because of Iraq." Do you believe that‘s true?

HUTCHISON: Well I think that because of all the efforts we‘re making in homeland security, because of our vigilance and because we are taking the war to the terrorists. The hotbed of terrorism right now is in Iraq, it‘s the insurgency. They are trying to make sure that we don‘t stabilize Iraq and yes I think the fact that we have not had another attack is very significant. It‘s because we have been vigilant.

O‘DONNELL: You think because of Iraq?

HUTCHISON: I think it‘s because of a number of things, including homeland security and the efforts we are making in homeland security and making sure that the terrorists are contained.

O‘DONNELL: I hear a little hedging there.

HUTCHISON: No, no, no, it is not hedging. It is saying that we are taking it to the terrorists. We are not letting them attack us. And that‘s very significant.

O‘DONNELL: Senator Hutchison, Senator Durbin, I greatly appreciate your time. Thank you very much for this debate. President Bush helped his party raise $27 million last night for the midterm elections, now 140 days away. Can the GOP keep control of Congress? We‘re going to ask the Republican Party chairman Ken Mehlman. And tomorrow on HARDBALL, Senators John McCain and Joe Biden. You‘re watching HARDBALL, only on MSNBC.

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