Senate Commerce, Science and Transportation Committee Hods Hearing on Nomination of Asa Hutchinson

Senate Commerce, Science and Transportation Committee Holds Hearing on Nomination of Asa Hutchinson for Undersecretary for Border and Transportation Security in the Homeland Security Department

WYDEN:
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I too think that Asa Hutchinson's going to be an excellent choice for this position, and I just want to outline a few concerns.

First with respect to the border, I think Mr. Hutchinson knows that there is a long history of government officials announcing, with tremendous fanfare, various programs to better enforce the borders, and they always seem to peter out. And I think what I'd especially like to hear is how your office, pushing the United States Congress, will break that cycle and ensure that this time the job really does get the follow-up that's warranted. And that means that the United States Congress is going to have to support you. It's not something where you just go out and tackle it on your own. And that follow through is something that I'd really like to hear addressed this morning.

Two other points just very quickly—someone who is really specialized in technology issues and has had the chance to serve under Senator Rockefeller on the intelligence committee, I think we've got to beef up information sharing. And there is the technology today to do this job right. And with the agencies you've got, INS, Border Patrol, and Customs, if one of them sits on information and doesn't get it out throughout the network everything's going to fall apart. And clearly, that is something post-9/11 we're aware of, and you'll have a chance to do something about.

Finally, the third area I'm going to ask you about is protecting whistle-blowers. I think if there is one thing that we have seen in terms of trying to hold the key agencies accountable is we've got to have protection for whistle-blowers. I think James Loy is off to a very good start, but he's signed some orders recently that do, in my view, affect our ability to get information with respect to mismanagement. I'll be asking about those issues as well.

And look forward to your service and supporting you in the confirmation process.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

WYDEN:
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Several of my colleagues talked about the question of sharing information among the various agencies that are in your jurisdiction. And my question to you, at this point, is how would you see breaking the mindset among these various agencies that always has them tend to keep the information to themselves?

I think it's clear that you're right with respect to the computers and making sure that they are in place to share information. But I'm concerned that unless you break this mindset, it will eventually lapse into something resembling business as usual.
And here would be an example that I would offer the nominee. I mean, let's say the Coast Guard spots some suspicious material—something that could be an ingredient for a chemical or a biological attack. Related ingredients show up at a Customs Department office, say on the northern border, which we've been concerned about. And then, at the same time, immigration authorities or the FBI have their eye on a suspicious set of individuals.

And here, you've got three agencies where, historically, they'd be inclined to work in isolation. They mean well, but they work in isolation. How would an instance—in an instance like that would it be handled differently now?

HUTCHINSON:
Well, it's very important to change the mindset of the agencies in sharing information. I think a tremendous amount of progress is made—has been made since September 11 -- the attack on America. People understand the importance of that and they are trying to accomplish that overriding goal.

As you pointed out, sometimes it's not a matter of the will, but it's a matter of the processes and the structural stovepipes that we have set up for these different agencies. That's what homeland security is about is to break down those barriers so the information can flow unimpeded.

That is going to be the first thing that we are really going to work on—to make sure that there is a clear chain of command and a clear flow of information. We have had some working groups already established just in terms that I can listen and see what these agencies you're talking about—where the problems are. So that's one of the earliest things that we will focus on.

WYDEN:
What are the problems that you're hearing when you go to these focus groups?

HUTCHINSON:
Well, for example—well, just what you pointed out, actually, that—where there's information coming into one agency and by the time it goes up the chain to the top and then gets to—down to another agency, there could be a time gap there.
I think that what we are looking at is that there is a clear chain of command with the opportunity of the inspection side being all in one arena now. There is not going to be three different agencies doing the inspection of the borders. So if we have it in—all within the Department of Homeland Security, there is naturally going to be a breakdown of those barriers.
Secondly, on the enforcement side, and that's another area of concern—that you've got Customs agents—you've got—you've got INS agents out there—and how the information flows there. We have an opportunity to improve that.
And I'll also point out one of the concerns is outside of homeland security. We still have to relate to the Department of Justice. And I assure you there is a strong commitment from Director Mueller—from the attorney general and with Governor Ridge to make sure those barriers aren't there. But it's a matter of working on that every day.

WYDEN:
On the whistleblower issue that I mentioned earlier, I would like to hear your thoughts and have you use this opportunity to send a signal to the workers that it's safe to come forward. I think there is great concern, with respect to the workers, right now. And certainly the TSA order recently—the Transportation Security order has raised additional questions with respect to employees rights. And, again, just—let's take a hypothetical—I mean, let's say the record keeping and data entry systems are so poor that key information that's important to fighting terrorists gets lost and somebody wants to come forward. I'm convinced a lot of people are very fearful about coming forward in this climate.

And I'd like to have you use this opportunity to state how you feel and send a message that you want that information.

HUTCHINSON:
Thank you for that opportunity, Senator. And the—all of the employees that come on board should know that they will be protected from improper political influence. They will be protected from reprisals against whistleblowers. And they will be assured to retain their current benefits and the protections they have currently, under law.

Whenever you mentioned the circumstance—information that's important for the policymakers to know, I certainly hope that they will share that with the leadership of the new department so we have an opportunity to fix it. But, clearly, that's information that members of Congress need to know. We are all together in trying to fix this.
And the employees should know that their rights will be protected.

WYDEN:
My time is just up.
On this whistleblower issue, having worked with a lot of them in various areas, including intelligence and health care and the like, I would just tell you the first couple of cases are going to be absolutely key because yours is a brand new department with a huge number of employees. You handle the first couple of whistleblower cases in a way that shows that you have confidence in the employees, that's going to be everything. If they look at those first couple of cases and say, "We're going to get bounced if we come forward," I think it's going to be very, very damaging.
And I look forward to working with you when you're confirmed.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.