Senate Judiciary Committee Holds Hearing on War Against Terrorism

GRASSLEY:
Thank you. I hope I can get to each one of you with one question, and then submit the rest of questions for answer in writing.

First of all, I want to compliment the chairman for holding an oversight hearing. I hope this is the first of many oversight hearings, because I think oversight is very, very important.

Secretary Ridge, I'll start with you. As you know, I recently held a Finance Committee hearing on border security that revealed several serious problems; two of those problems really stick out. The first problem was that undercover agents got into the country at ports of entry using really unsophisticated fake IDs and other phony documents.

The second problem is enforcement on public lands at the borders. More than 40 percent of the southern border is park land and the northern border has more than 500 miles of public land. About 250,000 illegal aliens cross the southern border every year, but only a handful of park rangers are out there to stop them. Who knows how many terrorist could joint the smugglers and immigrants to get into the country.

The day of the hearing that I held, you made a comment on the news that these issues needed to be resolved and that you would work with me. So first, I want to ask about the park lands at the borders. The National Park Service is just not equipped, staffed or trained to protect the borders enough. Security is a big, big priority right now with everybody. The Park Service needs the help of Homeland Security.

You've got ports of entry pretty well-secured, at least I hope you do and I think that you're working hard in that direction. But what can your department do to help stem the flow of illegal aliens on the rural public lands along our borders?

RIDGE:
Senator, the collaboration that has historically existed between the Border Patrol and other departments and units that come into the new Department of Homeland Security has been good. We believe, however, that our ability to reconfigure the border units, the border bureaus—one dealing with protection, the other dealing with enforcement—will give us some additional personnel that we can apply to the borders and to work with the Park Service to cover what heretofore has been uncovered or rarely covered territory.

One of the meetings I have later on this week is with the director of the Park Service. We recognize that there is a gap there. And it is our responsibility, in the Department of Homeland Security, to find ways to fill the gaps. One will be, obviously, more personnel, we believe, through the organization that we're developing. But in time, we think detection technology should be deployed in some of these less inhabited or uninhabited areas.

GRASSLEY:
Thank you.
Director Mueller, I know that you're working hard to transform the FBI. Unlike many of my colleagues floating new ideas, I still think that the FBI should be in charge of counterterrorism. What concerns me today is the FBI's internal cultural problems that you've hard me talk so much about. The FBI can't reform, I think, unless these problems get fixed. These are the same issues that have stopped the FBI in the past from being effective with counterterrorism. You inherited many problems; you have an opportunity and, as I know, do you feel a duty to fix them.

Just one example that troubles me right now is your assistant director at OPR, Mr. Jordan, and Unit Chief John Roberts. As you know, I've been concerned that Bob Jordan retaliated against John Roberts after Mr. Roberts went on "60 Minutes" to talk about longstanding problems, especially the double standard in discipline.

You have told me that you won't allow retaliation. And I have your memo here from November 2001 that says exactly that. But I also happen to have with me the inspector general's report about the case involving Jordan and Roberts.
The way I see it, an accounting is needed. This is an opportunity for you to declare an end to the double standard by holding Mr. Jordan accountable for a violation, at least in spirit, of the memo that you issued November 2001. Otherwise, the double standard will be alive, it will be very well and agents will fear retaliation for speaking the truth about the problems. If that happens, I think my faith in the ability of the FBI to reform would erode because that atmosphere hurts the FBI's overall effectiveness.

I'm also very troubled that Bruce Gebhart, the FBI's deputy director, sent an e-mail that said Mr. Roberts had, quote, "brought discredit to the FBI badge." In my letter to you last week, I asked how someone who had done what Mr. Jordan has could still be in charge of the office or OPR. And now there is a story in the media, I think just yesterday, suggesting he misled me, misled Senator Leahy, misled Chairman Hatch in December. I'm not saying that he lied, but I don't think he was forthcoming.

You've had some time to think about this, I hope. So I'd like to hear what you plan is for Mr. Jordan and what you think of Mr. Gebhart's e-mail.

MUELLER:
Well, Senator, I, quite obviously, share your concern about a double standard and protections for whistleblowers.
I think with regard to the issue of Mr. Jordan, when the issue arose I did, as I have in the past, asked the inspector general to look at that issue. And I have reviewed the inspector general's report. And I point out on the one hand it says that—it concludes that Jordan did not intentionally retaliate against Special Agent Roberts, but it did raise issues with regard to Mr. Jordan's judgment in that context.

Because of the seriousness of the issue and because I'm looking for guidance on what is the appropriate way to handle this, I had a meeting with the inspector general yesterday. And I informed the inspector general that, in reviewing the report and looking at the issues laid into judgment, I was my belief that that in and of itself was not sufficient to take any action. But that I should look at that in the context of Director Jordan's handling of the office, his record for integrity and judgment throughout his career, which is substantial, and to continue to look at that position and how he is operating in that position. And that is what I intend to do.

I will tell you also, Senator, that, as you are aware, I know that Mr. Roberts, who I respect and is respected by many agents in the FBI, also has indicated that Bob Jordan is making substantial changes to OPR that were long overdue. And if you look at Mr. Jordan's record in OPR in the short time that he has been there, he has reduced the backlog substantially, he has made substantial improvements to make our OPR a better and not only better across the board, but also to eliminate the appearance of a double standard.

GRASSLEY:
I think that's a slap on the wrist and it's a very bad message sending to everybody else that there's going to be a double standard continued.
Thank you.