CNN Late Edition with Wolf Blitzer - Transcript -

CNN LATE EDITION WITH WOLF BLITZER - Transcript -

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BLITZER: President Bush just a short while ago in Washington reaffirming U.S. support for Iraq's new government. Welcome back to "Late Edition." I'm Wolf Blitzer reporting today from New York.

Joining us from Washington to talk about Iraq and a lot more, Republican Senator Chuck Hagel of Nebraska. He's a key member of the Senate intelligence committee as well as the foreign relations committee. And Democratic Senator Ron Wyden of Oregon. He's also a member of the intelligence committee.

Senators, always good to have you on "Late Edition." Now, let me get your reaction to the formation of this national unity government in Iraq. Senator Hagel, I'll start with you. As you know, three key portfolios still not filled -- defense, interior, and national security. What do you make of this development today?

SEN. CHUCK HAGEL (R), NEBRASKA: It's a positive development. It's an important development. I think the president stated it exactly right. But as you have just noted, Wolf, there is a way to go. The three most critical portfolios have not yet been filled, or at least not been announced as to who will be the ministers.

But nonetheless, this is a significant step forward. What's important here is that the Iraqi government now be in place to start governing, start making decisions, so that the people in Iraq can start to develop some confidence that they are in charge of their future, they are making the decisions, they are the ones responsible for security and development. So, important step forward today. A ways to go, obviously. But this is important news.

BLITZER: Do you have any thoughts, Senator Hagel, on this report that Ahmed Chalabi is (inaudible) to be a likely candidate, or at least a possible candidate, to be the interior minister, which would run all the police forces, the internal security, more than 200 security forces under his control?

HAGEL: Well, that position is obviously critical. I don't know about that report. I have said for a long time, right from the beginning, Wolf, the future of Iraq is in the hands of the Iraqis. The outcome in Iraq will be determined by the Iraqis, not us.

And they are the ones who have to determine the makeup of that government. They are the ones who will determine their future. We can help support, but we will not be there indefinitely to do their work for them. So I don't know about that report. But it's up to the Iraqis now.

Senator Wyden, let me read to you today from a dispatch in The New York Times. "The violence has left Iraqi leaders isolated and embittered, and the democratic process has appeared increasingly irrelevant. The Bush administration's plans to reduce the number of American force to as few as 100,000 by the end of the year has been thrown into doubt. In private conversations American diplomats and military commanders have expressed growing pessimism about the prospects for any substantial change in the short term."

A pretty pessimistic assessment there. But what's your assessment?

SEN. RON WYDEN (D), OREGON: My assessment, Wolf, is that there may be an opportunity here, but I think we ought to be pretty cautious. For example, sectarian violence over the last three months has been higher than at any time in the last couple of years.

The Iraqi police, we saw stories about this today, clearly doesn't have things under control. And of course, Secretary Rumsfeld this past week in the Senate wouldn't commit to withdrawing some of our troops even this year. We've got to make real progress on Iraqis defending Iraq, and clearly we've got a long way to go.

BLITZER: You're a member of the intelligence committee, Senator Wyden. You heard the Israeli prime minister, Ehud Olmert, say on this program just a few moments ago he thought Iran was only a few months away, months in his words, from crossing a technological threshold, in his words, which would inevitably lead toward nuclear weapons. Is that the same assessment as you're hearing?

WYDEN: I do share his concern, and so do Senate Democrats, Wolf. In fact, this week we asked the administration to do a new national intelligence estimate to get at the bottom of these questions. We can't afford to see intelligence botched on Iran the way we saw it botched on Iraq.

And Democrats are going to try to get to the bottom of this. We know, for example, the real questions about how many centrifuges the Iranians have, and that of course is a key measure of their nuclear capability.

BLITZER: How much time, Senator Hagel, do you believe the international community has to allow diplomacy to work its way? HAGEL: Well, I don't know about time frames, but I do know this, Wolf. We, the United States, are going to have to engage Iran directly. And that agenda that has to be engaged is much wider than just nuclear proliferation.

HAGEL: It's going to have to deal with all the issues that confront not just the Iranian-U.S. relationship but the region. There will be no peace, prosperity, stability in the Middle East without the Iranians being part of that.

We had two days of hearings in the Senate Foreign Relations Committee this week. Almost every witness -- and there were witnesses from past administrations, Democrat, Republican; these are experts in the area -- strongly suggested the U.S. engage directly.

This is too important to leave on the outside, to let it just drift, and that's what we're doing. We're allowing this to drift. And when we're talking about nuclear proliferation, you don't get many second chances here. The margins of error just aren't there. It's a hair-trigger business.

So I think we need to continue to work with our allies, continue to stay moving in that direction. But at the core of this is going to be a direct U.S.-Iranian engagement, and I hope the administration is either planning for that now or starting to work that out.

BLITZER: Senator Wyden, you had one day of hearings before the Senate Intelligence Committee on General Michael Hayden to be the new director of the CIA. You asked him some seriously tough questions in the course of those hearings; then you went behind doors.

Do you now believe you will vote to confirm his nomination on Tuesday when the Senate Intelligence Committee considers confirmation?

WYDEN: Wolf, I haven't made a final judgment on it, and I don't expect to do so until I meet with the general again.

What I will tell you, though, that was partly striking to me is that the general has a reputation for being able to take very complicated issues and give simple answers. What happened at our hearing on Thursday, he was asked some pretty simple questions and was either giving complicated answers or wouldn't give any answers at all.

And there were some important contradictions at issue, as well. For example, in 2002, he came up to the Congress and testified that he couldn't listen to Americans' phone calls without a warrant, and yet the president's lawyers had advised him in 2001 that he could do just that.

We've got to get to the bottom of these questions. And I intend to meet with him again before I make a final judgment.

BLITZER: What about you, Senator Hagel?

HAGEL: I will vote for him. I think he's an exceptionally qualified candidate. I think he will do an excellent job.

There are many questions, just as Senator Wyden pointed out, that still need to be asked. I think this is rather complicated.

But as I said to General Hayden, both in private and at the hearing, we now, the policy-makers, the Congress of the United States, working with the president, needs to now develop a new framework, a new law, from within our Intelligence Committee, can work and assure Americans that their liberties are being protected as well as their national security interests. We now don't have that. Technology has overtaken past laws.

So we're going to have to work with Hayden. I believe he will be confirmed, and I think he will be an excellent choice. But we've got a long way to go here. This will not be the end of this debate, nor should it be.

BLITZER: All right, Senators, stand by. We have to take a quick break.

Lots more to talk about. We'll get Senators Hagel and Wyden to comment about the U.S. government's tracking apparently of phone calls around the United States. Also on immigration, what their thoughts are. Will the Senate come up with a compromise that will go to the House of Representatives?

Much more "Late Edition" right after this.

BLITZER: A beautiful day here in New York City. Welcome back to "Late Edition."

We're talking with two key members of the Senate Intelligence Committee: Republican Senator Chuck Hagel of Nebraska, Democratic Senator Ron Wyden of Oregon.

Senator Wyden, you've now been briefed, together with all members of the Senate and House Intelligence Committee, on the warrantless wiretap program, as well as the report in USA Today that the National Security Agency has been tracking millions, tens of millions, billions of phone calls, actually, of Americans to get some patterns to determine if there's a terror threat.

First of all, based on what you know, is that USA Today story accurate? Because some of the giant phone companies here in the United States are flatly denying it.

WYDEN: Wolf, Chuck and I are not allowed to get into just those details. It's not in line with our oath of office.

But let me tell you what we do know. Americans are fearful today because again and again their government says one thing and then does another.

For example, General Hayden, in one day, six times said that this warrantless surveillance program consisted of international-to- domestic calls only and then only when you were talking about terrorists. But then folks here at home opened up their USA Today newspaper, heard about this domestic database, and they said we should have had some kind of inkling consistent with national security about what was really going on.

BLITZER: What about that? I want you to weigh in, Senator Hagel.

HAGEL: Well, Ron framed it, I think, appropriately and responsibly. Obviously, we are constrained because of the secret nature of these hearings and the knowledge that we are dealing with. So we are limited, obviously, Wolf, in answering your question.

But in addition to what Ron said, I would add that it goes back to a comment I made a couple minutes ago. It is my opinion that, in fact, the 1978 law that governs wiretaps and surveillance and warrants is out-of-date and technology has overtaken all of this. And I think it's critically important that we pass a new law -- and we do have bills in the Judiciary Committee, one that I helped write; Senator Wyden's been involved, Senator Specter has a bill -- that we come up with a new law so that the American people have confidence in what is going on to protect their security interests.

And that is a priority, no question about it, but so is guaranteeing the liberties and the rights protected in the constitution. That balance is critical. That's going to be the effort here that we're going to have to go forward with and write that new law.

BLITZER: It looks like, Senator Hagel, you have also been in the forefront in trying to come up with some sort of common ground, a middle position on immigration reform, working closely with the president. It looks like the Senate is basically going to go ahead with what the president wants.

The problem is going to be when you have to reconcile that with what the House has already passed, because a lot of Republican leaders in the House, Senator Hagel, are firmly opposed to the president's so- called guest-worker program that would lead eventually over many years toward citizenship for 10 million, 12 million illegal immigrants, potentially at least, here in the United States.

Is it your assessment, Senator Hagel, that you can work out a middle ground with the House, legislation that the president will be able to sign into law this year?

HAGEL: It is my assessment that we can work out a middle-ground compromise.

I do believe, I am hopeful, that the Senate will pass a good, responsible, comprehensive immigration reform bill this week. Yes, I have been in the middle of that. Many Democrats and Republicans have been right in the middle of it, as well.

I'm very proud of our efforts, and I think it's responsible. And it does comply with what the president's talked about. I firmly agree with what the president is saying about this.

It will be difficult in a conference with the House because they do have, at least a majority right now, we think, a little different attitude on how we deal with these real issues. These are complicated issues, Wolf. They have been allowed to develop over years of neglect. We've deferred them. That's why we have the mess that we have today.

So we're going to have to obviously do much more to protect the interest of our border and secure that border. And we do that. The compromise bill in the Senate is strong in this area, as what the president's talked about. But we go much further, because we need to deal with the 12 million illegals in this country.

BLITZER: All right. HAGEL: How do we deal with that? All the other issues. I'm confident we can do it. That's our job. That's what the American people expect us to do.

BLITZER: Senator Wyden, your leader, the Democratic leader in the Senate, made a very forceful statement this week when the issue of whether English should be declared the national language of the United States came up. Listen to what harry Reid said.

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U.S. SENATOR HARRY REID, (D-NV), MINORITY LEADER: While the intent may not be there, I really believe this amendment is racist. I think it's directed basically to speak to people who speak Spanish.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Do you agree with Senator Reid, Senator Wyden?

WYDEN: Wolf, I've talked to Senator Reid, and what he really wants to do and what Senate Democrats want to do is work with Senators like Chuck Hagel to come up with a comprehensive bill. And you bet we see English and the English language as something that unifies us. It's something that brings us together.

Of course everybody knows that to really get ahead in this country you've got to know English, but let's try to first of all pursue this without all the divisiveness and polarization. In some instances, for example, we do need to have the forms in Spanish because otherwise some of the immigrants might not pay taxes.

BLITZER: Very quickly, we're out of time, but Senator Hagel, I want you to weigh in. What do you think?

HAGEL: Well, I think, again, this is all part of the debate of a democracy. Tough issue. It needs to be resolved. It's going to be imperfect. And let's have at it. We've had a great debate. We had 15 amendments offered that we debated and voted on last week. We're going to have more. That's the process. We're fixing and addressing the problem.

BLITZER: Senator Hagel and Senator Wyden, always good to have you on "Late Edition." Thanks very much for joining us.

And we're standing by to speak live with the United States ambassador in Iraq, Zalmay Khalilzad. And Iraq's deputy U.N. ambassador, Feisal al Istrabadi, on this, the day after the formation of a new Iraqi government.

And don't forget our web question of the week. When will Iraqi security forces take full control of their country? In six months, one year, two years, five years? Log on to cnn.com/lateedition to cast your vote. We'll be right back.

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