MSNBC's Hardball - Transcript

MSNBC  

SHOW: HARDBALL 21:00

BYLINE: Chris Matthews; Norah O'Donnell

GUESTS: Dick Durbin; David Dreier; Bo Dietl; Tony Blankley; Clarence Page; Norman Schwarzkopf; John Mccain

HIGHLIGHT:
HARDBALL debate: Which Democrat is right, Bill Clinton or Jay Rockefeller, about whether to drop the investigation into the State of the Union gaffe?

BODY:
MATTHEWS: Time now for the HARDBALL debate, and it's a hot one. Former President Bill Clinton is suggesting, at least, that it's time for Democrats to move on -- there's an old phrase -- from investigating who pushed dubious information into the president's State of the Union address.

Let's listen to Bill.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

BILL CLINTON, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We're all more sensitive to any possible stocks of chemical and biological weapon. So there is a difference between British -- British intelligence still maintains that they think the nuclear story was true. I don't think what was true, what was false.

I thought the White House did the right thing in just saying, we probably shouldn't have said that. And I think we ought to focus on where we are and what the right thing to do for Iraq is now. That's what I think.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

MATTHEWS: But Democrats don't seem willing to let go. Last flight on HARDBALL, Senator Jay Rockefeller, the ranking Democrat on the Senate Intelligence Committee, which heard testimony last week from CIA director George Tenet, said he'll continue the investigation.

Here's why he think the White House came clean this week.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JAY ROCKEFELLER (D), WEST VIRGINIA: It's public pressure and pressure from a lot of people like myself. They couldn't stand for George Tenet being the fall guy, knowing perfectly well he's said no to the president before.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEWS: And Rockefeller said this when I asked. He said this when I asked for the expectative motive of those to include the piece in the Niger story after getting warned by the CIA.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROCKEFELLER: It's dangerous and it's dumb. Probably to try and make the case better for the war and make it sound more attractive to the American people. I can't think of any other reason. But it's a lousy way to run a government.

MATTHEWS: Was it important to their case to claim there was a nuclear threat?

ROCKEFELLER: Yes, because nuclear is the ultimate destroyer. You know, chemicals can blow. Bio can dissipate. Nuclear kills millions.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEWS: So which Democrat is right over whether the investigation should continue, Jay Rockefeller or Bill Clinton? Joining me right now, Senator Dick Durbin of Illinois. He's a Democrat; he's a member of the Senate Intelligence Committee.

Senator Durbin, what do you think of Bill Clinton's comment last night on Larry King?

SEN. DICK DURBIN (D), ILLINOIS: Well, I think he made good point because we wake up every morning to the sad news that another soldier in Iraq has been either injured or killed. And I think that's the thing that most Americans are focusing on. They want to know if we have a good plan that's going to bring stability to Iraq and bring our troops home.

MATTHEWS: Is it an important question to answer? And I know where I stand and everybody watching the show knows where I stand, to know why we went into this war. Not whether we like killing people like Uday and Qusay -- who wouldn't? But why were went into this war.

For history's sake, why are we fighting this war? Why did we lose lives? Why are we going to lose a lot more? Was it because we faced a real threat to this country? Or was that all bullshit?

Secondly, was there a real connection to the guys who went after us on 9/11 or was that made up?

Those two questions, I want answered. Do you want them answered?

DURBIN: Well, I think we need answers. Because frankly, the credibility of the administration, the president, and the United States is at stake here.

We told the whole world that Saddam Hussein was a threat, not only to his own country but the region and even to other countries like the United States. And we established a lot of elements in that threat.

The question now is whether we can prove it. The search for weapons of mass destruction is part of that. Linking them with other terrorist group is part of it as well. I hope that we can establish that. You've raised some serious questions that I think deserve an answer.

MATTHEWS: Let me ask you, do the Democrats have the stomach to keep fighting this, even when they tell to you stop? People like Bill Clinton say lay off, are you still going to keep going and try to find out why we got in this war?

DURBIN: Well, I think the questions will continue to haunt this administration. They'll still be looking for weapons of mass destruction. And they're certainly going to have to be held accountable for statements in the State of the Union address, which turned out not to be factual. And I think really...

MATTHEWS: Whose fault is it? Is at the CIA's fault? Is it somebody in the vice president's office who may be over ram-rodding this whole operation? Is it some speech writer's fault for picking up something off a document and not somebody?

Whose fault is it when the president of the United States goes on national television and tells 100 million people that we face a nuclear threat from this government, this third world tin horn, Saddam Hussein, when there's no evidence we face that threat?

And why do they keep doing it all through the fall? And why did Cheney keep saying it all through the fall, with talks about mushroom clouds if we don't -- the smoking gun is going to be a mushroom cloud. They kept saying it over and over again.

And I believe they turned a lot of minds toward this war in the Congress and on the streets.

DURBIN: Well, that, of course, was the reason for their rhetoric. It was to convince the American people that this war was necessary.

As to who was accountable for it, we don't know the answer yet. The Senate Intelligence Committee is investigating that matter. We know that George Tenet believes the president should not have gone as far as he did in the State of the Union address.

We know that Steven Hadley said has conceded yesterday that he misled the president on some important information. Those are amazing disclosures.

But the bigger question is one that you pose. Let's close the loop here. What was all the information and where did it come from? Who were the people who were behind it in the White House and outside?

MATTHEWS: Are we going to ever get answer? Because if the White House stone walls and claims executive privilege, you don't get nothing.

Can you push -- Senator Rockefeller said on HARDBALL last night, you're going to play hardball. You're going to keep going and pushing to get the subpoena to get these men out there, and women out there to say what happened. Do you think you can keep the fire power up to get that done?

DURBIN: Well, I hope so. And I can tell you that what Senator Pat Roberts, the Republican of Kansas, has been saying is very encouraging.

He wants to get to the bottom of it, as well. He's talking about calling in key officials for testimony from the White House. I think that's an important part of it. What we need here is a bipartisan determination to get real answers.

MATTHEWS: Why does Bill Clinton, known to be a partisan like everybody else in politics, coming in and trying to throw cold water on a hot investigation? Why do you think he's doing that? Maybe -- Was he pandering to the Larry King audience that had Bob Dole on, and he thought a lot of Republicans were watching?

DURBIN: I don't know what his motive was, and I respect Bill Clinton and his political judgment. But I have to look at it from my perspective.

On the Intelligence Committee, we have questions that need to be answered. Because we want to make certain that the determination of the intelligence for any future threat is an accumulation that's honest and accurate and that the politicians in Congress and in the White House accurately portray this to the American people.

MATTHEWS: Last question: are they trying to -- are they trying to smear you, Mr. Durbin, Senator Durbin. There's word out from you, I believe, that the White House is putting out words out that you were leaking stuff; they're trying to smear your reputation. Is that true?

DURBIN: They tried to do it last Friday and it didn't go anywhere. They used two specific instances and we shot them down in both instances.

I really go out of my way to make certain that I don't say things that are classified and secret. I try to be very careful in my responsibility. The White House tried to put a little pressure on me but it didn't work.

MATTHEWS: OK. Thank you very much, Senator Dick Durbin of Illinois.