CNN "The Situation Room" - Transcript: General Hayden and the CIA

Interview

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BLITZER: David, thank you for that.

Among those meeting with General Hayden, Democratic Senator Dick Durbin of Illinois. He's a member of the Judiciary Committee dealing with terrorism, homeland security, among other issues. He says Hayden is certainly qualified to run the CIA, but has concerns about the president's pick. Senator Durbin is joining us now from Capitol Hill.

What do you think of General Hayden, Senator?

SEN. DICK DURBIN (D), ILLINOIS: Well, he's sure impressive when it comes to his knowledge of the intelligence community and his work at the NSA. Three basic questions. Is he independent enough? Can he stand up to Secretary Rumsfeld when he's arguing for the Defense Department to have its own separate intelligence operation as it has in the past?

Secondly, is he going to follow the McCain amendment which said no torture even for CIA employees?

And finally, when it comes to this warrantless wiretap program, haven't we reached the point where the administration should ask that the law be changed so they can follow the law instead of saying they're above the law?

I think those are the three basic concerns I have.

BLITZER: But is he basically qualified?

DURBIN: Oh, no question in my mind about that. This is a very bright man who's given a good part of his life to intelligence activity. He knows it inside and out. There's no question about that.

BLITZER: What did he say to you about changing that law to make it more palatable to you and other critics of the warrantless wiretaps? What did he say to you during that meeting?

DURBIN: I was surprised. You know, initially, the administration said, we can't ask for a change in the law without tipping our hand as to how we're using this program and what we're doing. But he said today when we met that there's been enough publicity about the program now we may be moving closer to a point where a request for a change in the law could take place.

I certainly hope that's the case. I think every president should follow the law.

BLITZER: Because earlier, the administration argument, including General Hayden, was that this kind of publicity, if there were an open debate about the details of this warrantless surveillance program, would tip off badly-needed information to the terrorists, to the enemy. And as a result, there should be no open discussion of it.

DURBIN: I understand that. But let me tell you, both political parties agree on that. We want to wiretap anyone who's a threat to the United States, particularly when associated with al Qaeda. We want to stop them before they cause harm here.

But we've got a system and a process that goes through a court that takes a view of these requests for wiretaps. And virtually every case they say yes. We think that this administration, like every other president, should be held to that standard.

BLITZER: What did he say to you about this other issue you raised, no torture?

DURBIN: Well, I'm a little bit concerned about his answer. He did ask me to give him a little time. He's going through an extensive briefing.

You know, he's worked at the NSA, which deals with signal intelligence and technological acquisition of conversations and information. Now he's moving closer to the human intelligence are with the CIA.

He's asked for a little time to look at the torture issue and to get back with me. But I really hope that he doesn't take Vice President Cheney's position.

The vice president argued against the McCain amendment initially and said the CIA employee should be exempt. We can't exempt any American from the basic American values that oppose torture, cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment.

BLITZER: Do you have a problem that he's a military man as opposed to being a civilian?

DURBIN: Well, a problem in this respect. Secretary Rumsfeld has been in competition with the CIA and the major intelligence agencies also from the start. He created his own intelligence operation under a man named Douglas Feith. It was virtually a renegade operation where he set out his own agenda, trying to prove his own view of intelligence data.

And that wasn't healthy. I don't think healthy at all. And I wanted to know if General Hayden is a man in uniform who has been a loyal soldier is willing to stand up to the secretary of defense if he goes too far. He assured me he had with intelligence reform and in other areas, and tried to give me some confidence in believing that he could in the future if he's called on.

BLITZER: As the new CIA director, assuming he's confirmed, he'll remain a deputy to John Negroponte, the director of National Intelligence, which is what he does right now. Is this basically reshuffling the deck a little bit? Or is there something more significant going on?

DURBIN: I think it's significant that Porter Goss has been asked to leave or chose to leave. I don't know all the circumstances. It may take some time for them to come out, but we've lost a lot of professionals at the CIA.

Some are now returning because Mr. Goss is leaving. But we have lost some very talented people. And I think what Mr. Negroponte and the president are seeking is a much better operation on intelligence, much more cooperation. And I think that's why they've turned to General Hayden.

BLITZER: Are you happy Porter Goss is gone?

DURBIN: Yes, I am. I didn't vote for him.

I like him, we have served together in the House. I think he's entirely too political for the job, and I think over the last couple years there's been a real bloodbath at the CIA. We have lost some very talented people. Not that they didn't need a shake-up, but I think it went too far.

BLITZER: Dick Durbin, senator from Illinois.

Thanks, Senator, for joining us.

DURBIN: Thanks, Wolf.

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