MSNBC Meet the Press - Transcript

MSNBC Meet the Press - Transcript

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MR. RUSSERT: Senator Durbin, in your mind, why has gasoline gone up 60 cents per gallon in one month?

SEN. DICK DURBIN (D-IL): I think there are two things, and one that you alluded to in your second question, profit taking by the oil companies. Last year, $110 billion in profit by the oil companies. ExxonMobil leading the pack. That translates into $1,000 for every household in America paid for profits by these oil companies. Four hundred-million-dollar retirement gift for Lee Raymond, the CEO of ExxonMobil. That is part of the problem. And I think it has to be focused on. Secondly, though, we've had a failure in our nation's energy policy. Since President Bush was elected to office, the price of gasoline has virtually doubled. After he signed the Energy Bill last year, home heating cost in the Northeast and Midwest went up dramatically. We saw this coming with MTBE. We knew that there would be a transition over as the MTBE producers were not protected from liability by Tom DeLay's amendment. All of these things were predictable, and yet we didn't prepare ourselves for them. We don't have a sound energy policy and we definitely need one.

MR. RUSSERT: But you voted for more ethanol to be blended into gasoline.

Aren't you partly responsible for what we're seeing?

SEN. DURBIN: I'd vote for it again because that's home grown and that means that domestically we can start to provide for ourselves as Brazil has done so successfully, I'm sure we'll mention on this program. But let's be very honest about this. When we put up the Maria Cantwell Amendment on the floor in the Energy Bill and said America should reduce its dependence on foreign oil by 40 percent over the next 20 years, it was opposed by this administration. Opposed because they said that would force higher CAFE standards, higher fuel economy for cars and trucks. That has to be part of the solution in America. And now the president recently has said he wants to revisit that issue. But that has to be part of any sound energy policy.

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MR. RUSSERT: Senator Durbin?

SEN. DURBIN: Am I the only one of your guests here that think that profit taking is a problem? I mean, I understand the basic laws of supply and demand. I understand that if the input costs have gone up, it's going to reduce your, your profitability. But here we have the most enormous profits in the history of the United States of America in business. The equivalent of $1,000 per household in America for profits. All of the market factors you described may suggest that the product is going to be more expensive to sell, but they don't forgive what I think is an outrageous profit taking by this industry.

And let me also say to Mr. Cavaney, to suggest that these are average, average profits—they're the largest profits in the history of American business. And to suggest that Mr. Lee Raymond's retirement gift is an average gift of $400 million for his service to the company? That's $3 for every household in America that they paid for Mr. Raymond's going-away gift.

MR. RUSSERT: Do you have any evidence of collusion or gouging?

SEN. DURBIN: Here's the problem we run into. Look, let me go back to an earlier point. For the past several decades, as we've just heard here from Mr. Cramer, there's been a consolidation of this industry. There are now five majors. They have swallowed up all of the competition, and they're the five big players. The Department of Justice antitrust division has watched as thousands of these mergers have taken place, with hardly a whimper. And now we have a situation where they are in control. Competition has lessened in terms of our own domestic oil industry, our own domestic energy. And I think that is a fact, too.

Is there collusion? Not until we have an aggressive investigation. And I might also add that when we suggested—the Democrats suggested in Congress making price gouging a federal crime, it was opposed by the Republicans. We think that this has to be taken very seriously if consumers are going to be protected.

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MR. RUSSERT: Senator Durbin:

SEN. DURBIN: I guess I'm the only one at the table to disagree. Let's get down to the basics here. The Bush administration has asked for tax breaks, $2 billion in the last Energy Bill, and protecting existing subsidies for oil companies, which are at this point in time experiencing the largest profit in their history. They are engorged with profit and when Senator Wyden goes to the floor and says, "Isn't it time that we reduced the subsidy to the oil companies who are drilling on federal lands," it's opposed by the Republicans and the administration. I mean, the bottom line is this: If you do not tax these corporations at this level they will continue to run up the profits to sky heavens.

I don't know where it ends. And they're saying as much, this year maybe better than last. And it means that consumers will continue to be victimized unless they feel that ultimately they're going to have to pay some of this money back. I'd like to see it come back. Rebates directly to consumers who've paid the price for this, but also investment. Investment in promoting energy independence and promoting new sustainable, renewable technologies. Businesses creating new jobs and good-paying opportunities for America with new technologies. And, Tim, we've done it before. Between 1975 and 1985 we got serious. We dramatically increased CAFE standards, we reduced our dependence on foreign oil by 30 percent over that 10-year period of time and our economy expanded at the same time. That's when California took off and became a national leader in terms of their cars and their, their conservation of energy. We need the same kind of leadership in America. We need a new direction. The direction we've been going in for an energy policy is disastrous.

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MR. RUSSERT: Senator Durbin, the Democrats, Al Gore urged Bill Clinton to tap that reserve. Democrats have, and the secretary's right, urged the president to tap into it. Now that he is withholding some oil and trying to hold prices down, Democrats are criticizing him for doing just that.

SEN. DURBIN: The reserve's almost full. The amount that's going to be withheld is going to have no measurable impact on price in the market. I think those of us who've looked at the reserve in the past have also looked at the, the impact of these oil prices. I'm from the state of Illinois. We're proud to have Chicago's hometown airline, United. They just went through bankruptcy. And if you ask the CEO, Mr. Tilton, what was the major driving factor, he said it was the price of fuel. Price of fuel drove them to lay off thousands of people, to force others to take massive wage cuts, to cut back on the retirement benefits of thousands of people as well. It's impacting agriculture, it's impacting taxi cab drivers. You name it. Average families feel it. And now what we're saying is, "Mr. President, last August you signed your Energy Bill. Your Energy Bill didn't serve America well." We need a new direction."

We can't do more of the same. We have to step out and look at this problem anew. And to hear, as some said earlier, we are a carbon-based economy, it's true. But let's be honest, there's an environmental impact here as well. As I mentioned to you earlier, Al Gore was—made a presentation yesterday about the impact of global warming as we burn all this fuel. We should be moving toward more conservation, more fuel economy, more efficiency, ways to fuel our economy that won't destroy this Earth in future generations.

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MR. RUSSERT: So import Brazilian ethanol?

MR. CRAMER: Well, it's only because the government refuses to waive the import...

MR. RUSSERT: Senator, can you go along with that? It's going to hurt your farmers?

SEN. DURBIN: I'll tell you why we won't do it, the same reason Brazil didn't do it. They had to build their indigenous domestic industry and so they didn't allow ethanol to come in from other countries. We are now building our indigenous ethanol industry. All over Illinois, all over the United States.

MR. CRAMER: But in the interim why not just waive it?

SEN. DURBIN: In the mean...

MR. CRAMER: Why not make it cheaper for America?

SEN. DURBIN: At this point in time, I tell you there is a boom now and opportunities for these ethanol production facilities. I want to see that happen. You know why? Because in downstate, small town America, that I represent as well, these are the best job opportunities they can find. These are business opportunities in communities that have otherwise almost given up. They have a chance now. And if you're going to allow us to become, allow this import of fuel from Brazil we may find ourselves as dependent on foreign ethanol as we are today on foreign oil.

MR. RUSSERT: Senator, in order to continue this drive you're concerned about global warming, you're concerned about oil and carbon gases and things, would you be willing to expand nuclear power in the U.S.?

SEN. DURBIN: I have trouble with that because I—we still have not resolved what we're going to do with the waste from these nuclear power plants. I just went to Braidwood Nuclear Facility outside of Chicago. Still serious problems with environmental issues that threaten the village of Godley, Illinois, directly in the, in the shadow of this plant.

MR. RUSSERT: So you would take oil and coal over nuclear?

SEN. DURBIN: Well, at this point, I think that we have to see other alternatives. There are sustainable and renewable sources as well. You know, I drive a hybrid car at home. My wife and I, we bought a Ford Escape hybrid. I think it's a move in the right direction. We need to promote more hybrid vehicles, more electrical-powered vehicles. We need to move away from this carbon consumption that could endanger this planet we live on. I think it's sustainable and renewable fuels. Also looking for more efficient ways to use the vehicles we have today.

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MR. BODMAN: I think that the president's instruction to us is by 2025, in 19 years, that we would have five million gallons a day of renewable energy, of ethanol in the marketplace to give—to, to square that with you, that's about, that's about 25 percent of what we use today, probably 20 percent of what we will use at that time.

MR. RUSSERT: Doable?

SEN. DURBIN: It's doable, I think. To reach a point of 40 percent reduction over 20 years, which was the Democratic position on the Energy Bill is doable. It means making a commitment to doing some things we're not doing, promoting energy independence and energy technology development that is environmentally responsible.

But it also means two other elements we shouldn't overlook: punishing profiteering. All the market forces not withstanding, if the oil companies still insist on these outrageous profits, the consumers will lose and the American economy will lose.

MR. RUSSERT: To be continued. Thank you all.

We'll be right back with our MEET THE PRESS MINUTE from three decades ago, talking about high oil prices with an oil company executive. Right here on MEET THE PRESS.

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