Department of Defense Appropriations Act, 2004

DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE APPROPRIATIONS ACT, 2004

AMENDMENT NO. 1268

    Mr. DURBIN. Will the Senator yield for a question?

    Mr. BINGAMAN. I am glad to yield to my colleague from Illinois.

    Mr. DURBIN. I am happy to be a cosponsor of this amendment. I ask the Senator from New Mexico—he has made the point it is still up to the administration to decide which names and identities will remain classified and not publicly disclosed. If there is any concern about national security and the threat of terrorism, as I understand this amendment, the Senator makes a clear exception so the administration has the last word in terms of this disclosure; is that not true?

    Mr. BINGAMAN. Madam President, in response to that question, let me say that is exactly right. We have gone out of our way to make it clear the Departments can keep secret, can keep code classification, whatever classification level the Department decides is appropriate, any information they think is vital to our national security. So we are saying, as to the information that is not of that type, tell us what can be told about who these people are and what the intent is as far as what to do with them.

    Mr. DURBIN. I ask the Senator from New Mexico, through the Chair, if he would yield for one additional question. Is it not true historically that when we are in the midst of a national security challenge or crisis, and questions of civil liberties arise, that many times we do not want to face them head on; that it is not until later in history that we look back and say we should have asked harder questions, questions about the suspension of civil liberties in wartime, questions about internment camps, questions about policies that we followed?

    If I understand what the Senator is seeking in this amendment, it is to say at this point in time what we are asking for is a disclosure of those people who have been detained and arrested and are in special status, whose rights at least may be compromised because of our concern about national security; and that disclosure is all that this amendment is about, giving the administration the last word and determination as to which names might be held back and not disclosed because of security concerns.

    Mr. BINGAMAN. Madam President, in response to that follow-on question, that is exactly correct. The Senator from Illinois is exactly right in pointing out that in what we are trying to do, we are not—this is not an amendment I am offering 6 weeks after the 9/11 tragedy. This is an amendment I am offering 20 months or more after the 9/11 tragedy. We know that many of these individuals have been there well over a year and a half. It is time that we in Congress exercise our oversight responsibility and say: Who are they? What are they intending to be charged with? I do not anticipate that these are individuals we are going to some day say we have decided to release. I assume that we have them there for good reason, and that we are going to prosecute them and that we are going to find them guilty. That is my assumption, assuming the system works as it is intended to work.

    So my thought is, let's get some idea of where we are going so that we begin to build in some accountability and begin to recognize what we historically have recognized, and that is that there are certain legal protections that apply if one is jailed by the United States Government. There are certain legal rights that we will be afforded.

    Mr. DURBIN. I ask the Senator from New Mexico if—I do not know how much time he has remaining, Madam President.

    The PRESIDING OFFICER. There are 3 minutes 15 seconds remaining.

    Mr. DURBIN. If I might ask the Senator from New Mexico this question: What is at issue in his amendment, if I am not mistaken, is whether we are going to afford any form of due process to these detainees. Is it not also true that we have to look beyond these detainees to how we as Americans would be treated in other countries, whether we are establishing a standard which we could live by?

    In other words, I am asking the Senator from New Mexico if we believe that we can detain individuals, without disclosure of who they are, and the circumstances of their detention, does that not invite the same conduct against Americans or service men and women overseas and give the United States little or no room to complain?

    I ask the Senator from New Mexico if he is not asking for us to stand up for some basic elements of due process which we would ask to be afforded to Americans in similar situations.

    Mr. BINGAMAN. In response to the question, I think the Senator from Illinois makes a very good point. If we are going to proclaim our commitment to liberty and to freedom as we always have, and as I certainly want to be able to do, and if we are going to insist that U.S. citizens, when they are captured in overseas incidents, whether they be military or civilian, that they be given some reasonable treatment through the court systems of those countries, then we have to have some adherence to reasonable legal process for these individuals that we have incarcerated. That is all I am asking. Tell us what we are going to do. If they come back and say we are not going to do anything, then we can see whether a follow-on amendment or follow-on action is appropriate.

    This amendment simply says, give us a report. Tell us the status of these individuals; tell us your plans with regard to these individuals; or give us some idea whether or not you are going to charge them. If you are going to charge them with something, tell us what you might charge them with. If you decide to make that decision later on, tell us when you might decide to make that decision.

    It is the most modest of amendments. I hope very much it will be supported by my colleagues on a bipartisan basis.

    How much time remains?

AMENDMENT NO. 1264

    Mr. DURBIN. Since Senator Dorgan is not here, I will claim 1 minute. I ask unanimous consent I be recognized for 1 minute to close this debate.

    The PRESIDING OFFICER. Without objection, it is so ordered.

    Mr. DURBIN. As cosponsor of this amendment, what we are setting out to do is to ask the administration for the costs of the Iraqi war. That is not included in this Defense bill. We are living on money appropriated in the supplemental appropriation that we know will run out before the next fiscal year ends, so we are leveraging from one supplemental appropriation to the next.

    This war, in fact, is costing in the realm of $4 billion a month and the Afghanistan war another $1 billion a month. We are asking the President to disclose the cost of this war, to give us an idea for the American taxpayers and for Congress of the financial responsibility we have undertaken.

    I support the amendment.