MSNBC Rita Cosby Live & Direct - Transcript

MSNBC Rita Cosby Live & Direct - Transcript

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COSBY: And you are looking at pictures that we just got in of President Bush arriving in Cancun, Mexico, just a short time ago. Tomorrow, he expected to meet with Mexico's president, Vicente Fox, for a major summit on the hot-button topic of immigration. And everybody is watching this.

This meeting comes as the debate over America's immigration policy is spilling into our streets, with the dramatic protests continuing in a lot of the major cities across our country.

Joining us now to discuss this border battle is Republican Congressman JD Hayworth of Arizona. He's got a new book out on immigration. It is called, "Whatever it Takes." And also joining us is Democratic Congresswoman Maxine Waters of California.

Congressman, let me start with you. You know, we just saw those dramatic pictures that our producer, Darren Mackoff, showed us of what's going on, on your border there. Do you think an immigration agreement is going to have any effect?

REP. JD HAYWORTH ®, ARIZONA: No, I don't, sadly. I think, unless the United States moves to a policy of enforcement first and actually puts up physical barriers, not only on our southern border with Mexico, but, quite frankly, on our Canadian border, as well, we'll continue to have this threat and this problem.

You see the scenes from the Colorado River. I think back a few years ago when one of our Border Patrol agents drowned in the Colorado River pursuing Chinese illegals. And that's something we have to stress here.

It makes no difference if the illegals are from Mexico or Mauritania, from Ireland or from Iceland, from Indonesia, from Chile, from any country in the world, if you are here illegally, that needs to stop. And we have to do this, both as a matter of national security and ultimately as a matter of economic security.

COSBY: You know, in fact, Congresswoman, 10 percent-we were showing on our piece -- 10 percent actually have a criminal warrant out for themselves that they've, you know, done something pretty significant. Again, it doesn't matter what country they're coming from.

Don't you think we need to beef up security, particularly, so we don't get that type of element in our country?

HAYWORTH: Absolutely, we have...

COSBY: Let me get the Congresswoman in. Let me get the Congresswoman in.

HAYWORTH: Oh, yes, certainly.

REP. MAXINE WATERS (D), CALIFORNIA: Absolutely. I think we all agree that we must have stronger border controls. I don't think there is any disagreement among any of the members of Congress.

We want to use new technology. We want to encourage Mexico to help out on their side. We want to do whatever can be done, more border agents, do whatever can be done to strengthen that border, to control that border. There's no disagreement on that at all in Congress.

COSBY: In fact, both of you, hold on, because in my exclusive interview with the Mexican president, I asked him what his country is doing to stop the flow, not just of aliens, but also of illegal drugs into this country. Here's what he told me.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FOX: ... which represents a joint responsibility, because, as long as there is demand, there will be supply. And that supply is not even produced in Mexico; it's produced in South America.

COSBY: But a huge portion's coming through Mexico.

FOX: Yes, but if we wouldn't have-if they wouldn't have this huge market in the United States, where they raised all this incredible amounts of money, dollars that are used to bribe Mexican officials or Mexican policeman. So what I'm saying is joint responsibility, that we both have to work.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY: You know, Congressman, some of these drug statistics are staggering. And I've just learned it right before we were doing the interview. I was amazed: 70 to 90 percent of the U.S. cocaine actually passes through Mexico. It's also the main source, of course, of marijuana. And also supplies 30 percent of the U.S. heroin market.

I mean, when you look at these numbers, Congressman, how concerned are you?

HAYWORTH: I'm very concerned. I'm also concerned about the fact that the Mexican special forces, their drug police, many of them crossed over to the dark side, are now in the employ of the narcoterrorists.

And to have the Mexican foreign minister, Luis Ernesto Derbez, basically deny that the Mexican military is involved in incursions into the United States, most celebrated down, I believe, in Hudspeth County, Texas, a few weeks ago, to have his suggest that they were Americans impersonating Mexican officials, I think, defies description.

There is joint responsibility, but the sad fact is Mexico has been a willing accomplice in supplying the United States with illegal workers where there may also be some sort of demand for cheap labor. But the fact is the Mexican government has yet to step up, as it should. And President Bush should remind President Fox of that tomorrow as they meet in Cancun.

COSBY: Congresswoman Waters, what should President Bush say to President Fox when he sees him face to face?

WATERS: Well, the president should be very tough on drugs, and drug-dealing, and drug-trafficking. We provide resources to other countries oftentimes, in the Caribbean and other places, to deal with drug dealers and drug traffickers.

And I think that we should make it very clear to the president of Mexico that we will not tolerate the influx of illegal drugs into our country, that we are going to be tough on this side and he must be tough on that side. But most people coming across the border are not drug dealers.

COSBY: All right, both of you, stick with us. We're going to have much more with our two guests right after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSBY: And as we're looking at pictures of some of the protests this week, we are talking about the battle over America's borders with Democratic Congresswoman Maxine Waters of California and also Republican Congressman JD Hayworth of Arizona, who's got a new book out immigration called "Whatever it Takes."

Congressman, as we're looking at these shots, you know, just massive people coming out, is one of the solutions the U.S. military on the side of the border?

HAYWORTH: Oh, yes. The U.S. military should be utilized on the border, and the technology that we have available, as the book's title says, "Whatever it Takes."

But as we see scenes of this protest, I think it's important to document what these protests were not. They were not revisiting the 1960s, because these were not lawful citizens in pursuit of their rights. These are non-citizens, in many cases, asking for special rights.

And that is the fundamental problem. That is why we should pursue a policy of enforcement first to make sure our laws are enforced to close existing loopholes, to have interior enforcement against employers who willingly and knowingly hire illegals, and also have the aforementioned border enforcement, including our military.

COSBY: While we're talking about enforcement, both of you, hold on, because I asked the Mexican president about corruption, not in the U.S. military, but the Mexican military. And I also asked him whether he thinks that they can be trusted with stopping crime along their side of the border.

This is what he told us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FOX: ... this corruption comes from driving from all this money that comes in. But with working hard, let me tell you that we have more than forty leaders of cartels in jail. And which, by the way, now we have an approval of the Supreme Court in Mexico that we can extradite them to face U.S. justice. And this we will do.

But number two, we have more than 57,000 members of different drug cartels that are in jail in Mexico. So we're working hard.

COSBY: But are you saying that the Mexican in military is clean, that they're not corrupt?

FOX: Well, as an institution? I'm absolutely clear that it's a guarantee, Mexican army. But there might be exceptions, somebody that disappoints and doesn't comply. Yes, it exists, but it's minimal.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY: Congresswoman Waters, how do we monitor and make sure that things are being enforced on both sides?

WATERS: Well, I hope the president-our president will talk with the president in Mexico about strengthening their ability to deal with the border crossings from that side.

I don't agree with the military being used. The military's trained to kill, and I don't think we're talking about killing people.

What we're really talking about is dealing with the problem of securing the border, which we all agree to, and what to do about the 11 million illegal, undocumented immigrants that are here in the United States.

We're going to end up, I believe, with some kind of a guest program.

We're going to end up a way to have earned legalization for the 11 million.

We will develop some kind of criteria.

I would also like to see us be very, very tough on violent gangmembers and, drug traffickers, and people who commit crimes here in the United States, immigrants who commit those crimes, and deportation would be in order.

But I would also like to see us have a strong, livable wage policy for workers in America so that we won't have the undermining of the ability to work by people in this country, by immigrants who are paid less than minimum wages.

I think we should have a strong, livable wage policy. And we should, once we develop all of our policies, if, in fact, we have employers who are violating it, it should be very, very tough penalties. As a matter of fact, there should be criminal penalties.

COSBY: And, Congressman Hayworth, really quick, military just trained to kill?

HAYWORTH: No, the military's not just trained to kill. The military could help the Border Patrol, hopelessly outmanned and outgunned right now on our border, actually enforce the law.

But the other fact is this: A guest-worker amnesty plan is the wrong plan at the wrong time for the wrong reasons. We are a nation at war, and the fact is...

WATERS: I didn't say an amnesty plan.

HAYWORTH: Well, that's exactly what it is. Earned legalization...

WATERS: No, this is your president's plan, perhaps.

HAYWORTH: ... is amnesty. Maxine, I didn't interrupt you. And I'm happy to offer my point.

WATERS: Well, that's OK. We should have a discussion here.

HAYWORTH: Let me make this point, please. Well, I'd like to be able to make a point...

WATERS: It's the president of the United States that wants a guest-worker program.

HAYWORTH: ... rather than be crosstalked.

Rita, could I finish?

(CROSSTALK)

COSBY: Congressman, go ahead.

Congresswoman, I'll get you in, but let me get the congressman in.

WATERS: OK.

HAYWORTH: Here is the bottom line: Earned legalization is amnesty on the installment plan. The fact is that you are going to see a balkanized society. You will see the creation, if we get this passed by statute, of a permanent underclass of the United States, separated by language, culture and substandard wages.

And you will not stem the flow of illegal immigration. But this notion that you can have a strong border policy and, at the same time, have a liberal employer policy is public policy schizophrenia.

COSBY: Let me bring the Congresswoman. Can we have it both ways?

Can we have it both ways, Congresswoman?

WATERS: The fact of the matter is my colleague does not want to admit that we have 11 million undocumented workers here in the United States. In his state alone, they are covering all of the hotels, all of the restaurants, all along in southern California.

These people are working in jobs that hold up this economy. And you cannot just wish them away.

HAYWORTH: It's not a process of wishing them away, Maxine.

WATERS: We need a plan by which they can earn legal status, and it is not amnesty. And even though I'm not a big supporter of guest-worker programs, your president is pushing it so hard, those of you who go along with everything the president wants are going to fold anyway, and you're going to end up supporting the president.

HAYWORTH: No, you're talking to the wrong guy. I'm not going to fold on this.

(CROSSTALK)

COSBY: JD, what can you get out of this?

(CROSSTALK)

COSBY: Realistically, JD, what can you get out of this?

WATERS: He can't. You can't.

HAYWORTH: Well, the bottom line is, here's the bottom line. The first question we ought to ask is: How do we protect lawful citizens of the United States? When Maxine instantly says the question about those who have come here illegally, how do we accommodate them? That is precisely the wrong question. We should enforce the law.

COSBY: What do you say, JD? Do you say send them back? What do you say?

HAYWORTH: I say, you know what? They relocated here illegally. When you take away the magnet of being employed illegally, when you take away all the benefits that are coming from the pockets of American taxpayers, then I think people step and say, "Wait a minute. What's the incentive of staying here? Maybe I ought to go back home."

I think you will see voluntary relocations, not a knock in the middle of the night and women and children separated from families.

WATERS: That's pipe-dreaming, JD.

HAYWORTH: No, yours is the pipe dream!

WATERS: That's pipe-dreaming.

HAYWORTH: Yours is the pipe dream, Maxine...

WATERS: As a matter of fact, many of the undocumented workers...

(CROSSTALK)

HAYWORTH: ... because here's what's going on. The right wants cheap labor, and the left wants cheap votes.

WATERS: ... are in the underground economy.

HAYWORTH: And we see what's going on. You want to get these guys fast-tracked to citizenship because you believe they'll vote themselves more benefits, and you'll have a bonanza on the left that way.

WATERS: Oh, that's ridiculous.

(CROSSTALK)

COSBY: Congresswoman, are we giving these, you know, folks who have gotten in here illegally, saying, "Come on in"? I mean, are we opening the floodgates.

WATERS: No, absolutely not. What he's doing is he's not facing the reality that there are 11 million undocumented workers. Many of them are in the underground economy. They hired out to do all kind of handy-man work. They're hired out to do work that's not even with the major corporations, like Wal-Mart. They do some of that.

(CROSSTALK)

COSBY: But are we opening the floodgates? Are we saying, "Look"...

(CROSSTALK)

WATERS: No, we should secure the border. We should get tough. We should secure the border, have more border patrol, make sure we do the best job to stop the influx.

We should have some way to earn legalization, a process and criteria that's set up to do that. We should deport hard criminals and violent gang members.

And we should have livable wage policy so that we will have people accepting jobs that are now being done, perhaps by immigrants, because they're paying less than minimum wages. These are the kinds of things that are going to end up in a compromised bill.

And I guarantee you that, whatever bill comes out of Congress, you're going to have a guest-worker portion in it, because that's what the president of the United States is pushing. Again, I don't necessarily favor guest-worker, where people come here and work for five or six years, then you send them home, but the president wants it so badly...

(CROSSTALK)

COSBY: JD, JD, do you think we'll see the guest-worker program? What do you say?

(CROSSTALK)

WATERS: He's going to make Republicans accept it.

(CROSSTALK)

HAYWORTH: If we do, we are going to have major problems in this country. What Maxine is endorsing is public policy schizophrenia.

What we need is enforcement first, both on our borders and in our interior. And this is not the classic political compromise, where you take something from column a, and something from column b, and everybody lives happily ever after.

This is a tough problem, a problem of national security, economic security. Heck, it can even adversely effect Social Security. And we better think long and hard before we rush in to a guest-worker amnesty plan. It is the wrong solution, though you have a marriage of convenience between the left and right.

(CROSSTALK)

WATERS: It is not amnesty.

HAYWORTH: Cheap labor on the right, and cheap votes on the left.

(CROSSTALK)

COSBY: Both of you, we have a little bit of time left, you guys, real quick.

WATERS: JD is going to be one of those Republicans who are going to roll over for the president's guest-worker program. He's jamming it down...

HAYWORTH: How dare you accuse me of something! No guest-worker plan.

WATERS: ... their throats. They're not going to be able to resist it. It's going to be part of a compromise.

HAYWORTH: I'm on the record saying I'll defend America and American citizens.

(CROSSTALK)

COSBY: And both of you, real quick, real quick, you guys. I'm going to give you both 10 seconds each.

WATERS: Yes, absolutely.

COSBY: Will there be a deal? Will there be a deal?

(CROSSTALK)

WATERS: Of course there's going to be a deal.

HAYWORTH: It will not even come up in the House. We will stop it.

WATERS: Of course there is going to be a deal.

(CROSSTALK)

COSBY: Congressman, Congressman, the me get the congressman. Real quick, yes, no...

(CROSSTALK)

HAYWORTH: If a deal is made, it will be a disaster for the United States. I do not believe the House of Representatives will go with it.

COSBY: All right, that's going to have to be the last word, guys.

Both of you, thank you.

WATERS: Thank you. Thank you very much.

COSBY: You were both terrific. Thank you both so much.

And tomorrow night on LIVE & DIRECT, we're going to have more of our special series on America's border. You can tell it is a very heated issue. We're going to show you the sophisticated secret weapons our border agents are using to catch smugglers in the act.

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