MSNBC "All In with Chris Hayes" - Transcript: Interview with Sen. Bernie Sanders
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And who`s threatening to hold up the whole process on that bill for costing too much, who`s refusing to go along until every penny can be accounted for? Well at least one senator is. Independent Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont is the chair of the Senate Budget Committee and he joins me now.
Senator, you know, look, I`ve been covering politics in Washington for 15 years thereabouts, and it has always been the case. There`s money for domestic programs which is real money that has to be accounted for where you`ve got to get CBO scores, it`s going to be paid for as deficit, and then there`s money for defense particularly for war funding. It just doesn`t count.
It`s just in a different category existentially just however much, trillions, trillions, trillions here, trillion there. And it must be maddening at this point to watch everyone pouring through the CBO score while the defensive probes thing just sails through.
SANDERS: Well, I`m going to be on the floor of the Senate in a bit and, Chris, you stole my speech. That`s exactly the point I`m going to be making. The hypocrisy is extraordinary. When we want to improve lives for our children, for the elderly, when we want to make health care universal and affordable, when we want to deal with climate, oh my God, Bernie, don`t you understand we have a terrible national debt in the deficit.
But when it comes to military spending, really, the military-industrial complex in a bipartisan way, always gets what they want. And what we`re talking about now is a budget that is $35 billion more than President Trump`s budget, $25 billion more than what President Biden requested. And you`re giving it Chris to an agency, the Department of Defense which is the only major federal agency that has never been successfully audited to account for what it does with its money.
And everybody knows there are massive cost overruns, enormous amounts of fraud from defense contractors. But that`s OK, not a problem.
HAYES: You know, you just said this. So, it`s 25 billion more than the budgetary request of the White House. Now, that`s one year. And again, this is -- I know I`m throwing a lot of numbers to people, but this is part of what`s so maddening about the situation, the one year versus the 10-year scoring.
In the 10-year scoring, that`s $250 billion. I`ve been tracking all these negotiations about Build Back Better. That would be a huge chunk, just that, just a little bit over above what the -- what the White House asked for, times 10, would buy you clearance room for like a whole new program in Build Back Better.
SANDERS: Right. What you`re talking about -- and I hope people understand. When we talk about $1.75 trillion for Build Back Better, that`s over a 10- year period. When you talk about $778 billion for the military, it is one year. Multiply that by 10, and probably you end up with you know, close to $10 trillion over a 10-year period.
HAYES: I was -- I was laughing the other day because the New York Times did a piece. And it was a perfectly -- a perfectly good piece about all the different things that are Built Back Better. The framing was a little weird to my mind. But one of the things I mentioned is that I think in Build Back Better, there`s like, you know, $25 million with an M, for doulas who are um practitioners who help women give child -- give birth. And there`s lots of empirical evidence to suggest that it really helps with childbirth and postpartum recovery in a country that --
SANDERS: Right. Right. And it saves money, by the way.
HAYES: It saves money, $25 million which was written up in like, oh, here`s the hidden spending in this bill. It`s like 2.5 percent of a single stealth bomber, a single one.
SANDERS: Look, this is what the debate is about. What we are trying to do in this legislation is break through this myth of the need for austerity and to make it clear that our working families, our children, our senior citizens are entitled to certain rights which by the way, exists in countries all over the world.
There`s this great controversy, you know, about paid family and medically leave. Can we afford it? You know, Chris, we are the only major country on earth that doesn`t have it. There are women who give birth today who have to go back to work a week from now. Our child care system is dysfunctional. Elderly people walking the streets with no teeth in their mouths, not to mention the needs of climate.
But when it comes to working families, oh my God, we can`t afford it. When it comes to tax breaks for people on top, for military spending, no problem.
HAYES: Yes. And just on that note, I just want to remind people back in 2017, around this time when the -- when the big corporate tax cut was being pushed through the CBO estimate, had it estimating adding 1.7 trillion to the deficit, I mean enormous amount to the deficit. And it turned out, that was actually an underestimate. It now looks like it`s going to be closer around 2.5.
So, the CBO didn`t even get it right there. It actually has turned out to be more expensive than initial projections.
SANDERS: And that`s what it is. I mean, what we are fighting for now is not only the programs whether it`s child care or pre-k or climate change. What we are fighting for is to a consciousness which says, you know what, in America, we can do what other major countries do, that when people get sick, they can have affordable prescription drugs, that if you`re old and disabled, you can have somebody come to your home and help you rather than be forced to go into a nursing home, that you can get hearing aids or eyeglasses or dental care when you are a senior citizen.
So, it is a change of consciousness to say you know what, we can spend money not just on the military and tax breaks for the rich, but on the needs of working families.
HAYES: We`re going to see what`s in the final package, of course. The House might be voting tonight. The hearing aid stuff is in the House package, a limit on insulin is in the House package. It was actually something folks has been trying to do for a long time. So, we will get a look at that. That`s I think live footage right now in the Well of the House floor.
Senator Bernie Sanders, thank you very much for coming by.
SANDERS: Thank you. Take care.
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