MSNBC "The Last Word with Lawrence O'Donnell" - Transcript: Interview with Sen. Jeff Merkley

Interview

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O`DONNELL: Joining us now is Democratic Senator Jeff Merkley of Oregon. He is part of the group of Democratic senators who worked with Senator Manchin on the Freedom to Vote Act.

Senator, your reaction to the vote in the Senate today, and what you now need to do in order to even get the right to vote? You do not have the right to vote in the Senate on this bill.

SEN. JEFF MERKLEY (D-OR): Yes, it`s very troubling for our democracy. You think about that ancient saying about the senate`s the world`s greatest deliberative body, yet we have evolved through a change of culture where the minority set on obstruction has veto power over whether a topic can even be debated.

So this is paralysis, and this is really driving the Senate to a point it can`t respond to the issues facing Americans, whether it`s health care, housing or education or jobs or equality or climate, the Senate`s in big trouble, and that puts our republic in a desperate position.

O`DONNELL: Senator Angus King told Rachel Maddow in the previous hour that he would be willing to change at least the procedure for the threshold and switch the pressure onto the objecting minority and force them to deliver 41 votes to basically continue debate and avoiding a vote on the bill that the so-called culture rule. That would change the dynamic, it would make it something that would require the physical presence of Republican senators in order to do this kind of thing.

What is your reaction to that or any other possible change in the 60-vote threshold to allow an actual vote, allow senators the right to vote on the right to vote?

MERKLEY: Well, the point here is we have to restore the Senate, and when we say that, it means restore it as a body that`s able to debate an issue and hold votes on an issue. And the particular idea that Angus is referring to is that it`s a response to an accidental mistake from 1975. When the rule was changed and it said, well, to close debate instead of a higher number, we`ll do a lower number, instead of two-thirds, we`ll do three- fifths, so, 67, we`ll do 60.

Instead of it being a percent of those who show up, it will be a percent of the body, which meant -- and people did not understand what they were doing, that those who want to obstruct don`t have to show up.

And therefore, it became so easy to obstruct, because the burden is all on the majority, you can go on vacation and obstruct, the vote could be 59 to zero and the 59 lose and can`t hold a debate. So, what I am suggesting is, shouldn`t the responsibility beyond those who want more debate to actually be there to debate? How logical is that? Very logic.

O`DONNELL: Let`s listen to what Angus King said tonight about the math of the Senate now, and how 41 senators in the Senate could be representing a tiny population blocking what the majority wants.

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SEN. ANGUS KING (I-ME): You can get 41 votes out of the current Senate, which was enough to block any legislation. And if you take the states that those 41 senators represent, add all the population together, you get 24 percent of the American people. So, the situation we`re in now is the 24 percent of the American people have an effective veto over anything that 76 percent of the American people think it`s important public policy? I don`t think that squares with Democratic theory.

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O`DONNELL: Senator Merkley, I no longer really understand the reluctance of Democratic senators who, I guess there`s not too many of them, who are wanting to hold on to the current version of the 60 vote threshold?

MERKLEY: Well, the best light I can shine on it is a Senate has been a place where the minority was guaranteed the opportunity to be heard and to participate. And that is something we should retain. So, imagine that by having to show up and actually debate to continue to debate, the minority console things down by giving long speeches in order to seek amendments, to seek compromise, to make sure the public has seen the bill, make sure that processing the bill, make sure the members have been able to backfill, that`s all positive.

And you know, it`s a real chance to participate, persuade, regardless of which party you`re in. That`s a stronger Senate. But when that right to participate, becomes a right to block the Senate from acting to veto the opportunity to act, then we`ve gone over the cliff. And we`re crashing.

And you think Lawrence about right now, we are noting that in the world, there is a huge resurgence of authoritarianism. And the President of China is saying, look how much more effective my model of authoritarianism is, rather than the Republic, rather than the Democracy. And here we are, really in the position to be the shining light to the world, to show how power flows up from the people, rather than down from the few above. And what`s happening, we are destroying the ability to be that light to the world because we can`t even hold a debate and a vote. And the world looks at that and goes that`s dysfunctional. That won`t work.

O`DONNELL: Quickly, Senator, before you go, with the reporting today that Joe Manchin is considering leaving the Democratic Party. Did you all go into a group hug with Joe Manchin to try to hold on to him today?

MERKLEY: I didn`t hear that report today. But I can tell you we`ve had a number of conversations recently with Joe and he`s been very earnest about his philosophies and his wanting to find a path to meet the caucus halfway and is responding to the urgency of moving on build back better. So, my only sense is, he feels very connected to our team.

O`DONNELL: Senator Jeff Merkley, thank you very much for joining us tonight.

MERKLEY: Thank you.

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